Assorted Conversations
Are you intrigued, inspired and just have to learn more when you find someone who is boldly embracing their dreams? Make plans to join me every other Wednesday as I share stories from everyday people following their passions and pursuing happiness.
Have some laughs, learn about a specific passion and develop an understanding of how and why these guests are turning their dreams into realities, plus possibly get inspired to begin your own journey!
Assorted Conversations
Ep. 41 - The Ultralight Backpacking Conversation with Jerry Duggan
Imagine taking everything you need for a multi-day backpacking trip in a pack weighing less than 10 pounds. That's ultralight backpacking, and our guest, adventurer Jerry Dugan, is here to share his passion and expertise in this unique outdoor pursuit. With a rich history tracing back to George Sears in the late 1800s and Grandma Gatewood in 1955, ultralight backpacking offers a minimalist approach to exploring the great outdoors. Jerry shares his journey from hammock camping to ultralight backpacking, and provides invaluable advice on what essentials to pack for various trips, all while keeping the load under 10 pounds.
Going solo or in a group, each backpacking trip presents its own challenges and dilemmas. Whether it’s planning for solo trips or managing the dynamics within a group, Jerry imparts his wisdom on these often overlooked aspects of backpacking. He candidly shares stories of wildlife encounters during his solo journeys, and how his ultralight gear enables him to move faster, see more, and have unique experiences off the beaten path. Learn how to adjust your gear based on weather, the importance of knowing your water sources, and crucial safety measures to keep in mind, particularly when camping in wildlife-dense areas.
Taking ultralight backpacking a step further, Jerry also talks about his plans to conquer sections of the Appalachian Trail and shares some of his upcoming trips. Tune in for a compelling exploration of ultralight backpacking and gather invaluable tips for your next outdoor adventure!
Guest Links:
Beyond the Rut Podcast
Set up a Lighter Pack Account to assess your gear weight
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Every day people following their passions.
Speaker 1:That's probably like one of the highlights of my life so far.
Speaker 2:Just being able to be creative, like that Something of a whisper.
Speaker 1:And then I decided to get another hive and that turned into a lot of hives. As long as I can do that, I want to be a good citizen and help people out.
Speaker 2:Putting themselves out there, taking chances and navigating challenges along the way. I absolutely identified with having stage fright, because any time I went on stage I just felt like I was having a hot attack.
Speaker 1:Very first lap, very first practice session. I crashed, Turned the car upside down, made a spectacle of myself and I got back on that horse and started riding again.
Speaker 2:As they pursue what makes them happy and brings them joy. As long as people are having a good time and I have the opportunity to put smiles on people's faces, I love what I do. I have done things that I never thought I could do. This is Assorted Conversations, and I'm your host, helen. Hello, hello, hello and welcome if you're listening to Assorted Conversations for the first time, and welcome back if you're tuning in again. Now for this week's episode. I got to start by saying I am the world's worst packer when it comes to getting ready to take off on a trip, probably part of the reason I've never considered backpacking as something I'd like to explore. This week's guest shed some light on things for me as it relates to his love of ultralight backpacking. In the US, the term ultralight often refers to backpackers who carry gear with a base weight of 10 pounds or less, and base weight is considered the weight of your pack and your gear, your supplies. It doesn't include food and it doesn't include water. By contrast, traditional backpackers have a base weight of anywhere from 15 to 30 pounds and can go all the way up to 55 pounds in some cases If hunting equipment or fishing equipment or even video equipment is being hauled along the trails.
Speaker 2:A little history on ultralight backpacking. It was popularized by American rock climber Ray Jardine, whose 1992 book, the PCT Hikers Handbook, which was later retitled Beyond Backpacking, laid the foundation for many techniques that ultralight backpackers use today. Although Jardine is credited for popularizing ultralight backpacking, traveling light on the trails, can trace its roots back to George Sears, who in the late 1800s hiked the Appalachian Trail with only a waxed canvas tarp walking stick, a small pan and a dual-bladed hatchet. He also wrote a book about that experience in 1884. The book is entitled Woodcraft, so I don't know if you can hit up Alibris to get a copy of that, but that would be interesting to take a look at. And then another early pioneer was Grandma Gatewood, who threw height to the Appalachian Trail in 1955 with only a duffel bag containing an army blanket, a plastic sheet, an umbrella and a few cooking utensils Not my idea of a fun camping trip.
Speaker 2:However, my guest this week, ultralight backpacker and fellow podcaster, jerry Dugan, is probably thankful for the advancements made since George Sears and Grandma Gatewood's time. Get ready to take a peek into the challenging yet highly rewarding experience of being an ultralight backpacker, and I'll see you on the other side. This week's guest, jerry Dugan, has eight years of ultralight backpacking experience through the Midwest area. Please help me welcome Jerry Dugan to Astorta Conversations. Hey there, jerry.
Speaker 1:Hey Helen, Thanks for having me on here. I'm excited because we're talking about something I love.
Speaker 2:That is great. Well, good, I'm glad you like to talk about this. I've got to ask you what is ultralight backpacking?
Speaker 1:All right. So backpacking itself is where you just it's camping and hiking put together, and so everything you're going to need for your trip you carry on your back, hence backpack, and you put it in a backpack. You know that's different than people just pulling up to a campsite unloading the cooler the tent the stairs.
Speaker 1:If you're my brother, you pull up with a trailer, with a TV screen, xbox, all those things Like. To him that's camping, to me I'm like no, that's moving, I don't want to do that. So backpacking is you minimize down to what you need to go out camping. And then ultralight backpacking takes it a step further. That says I don't need to carry a 30 to 40 pound pack. I can go further, faster, if I can keep my base weight to under 10 pounds.
Speaker 1:And the base weight is just the basics, your equipment, and not counting your food or your fuel or your water. So it's things like your sleeping bag, changes of clothing, toilet trees, sleeping pad, tent, all those and your pack weighing 10 pounds or less. So that's ultralight backpacking and you just look for ways to minimize the amount of weight you're carrying. And so I think my average base weight, especially during the summertime, is around 8 and a half to 9 pounds. Now, fall, winter, especially wintertime, under 15 pounds is considered ultralight because you got to bring some extra stuff or you can die, and we don't want to die out there. So I think my ultralight weight during the winter is around 12 to 13 pounds.
Speaker 1:Wow Well now I know why I am not a backpacker ultralight or regular, because when I go on vacation I can't get my luggage under 50 pounds, so, and I think half of that's my hair dryer, but anyway, oh man, my, my, my friends are amazed, Like when I just did a work trip last week and I went to Fort Lauderdale for a couple days and everything I needed my laptop, the training materials I took with me and my clothes, as well as leisure all fit into one backpack and I also brought a tripod and some microphones and remotes and things like that All that in a one backpack and everybody's like how? Why? I'm like, I just know how to pack. And so one of the things that carries over from ultralight is that everything can have multiple uses. And so you know, a lot of folks think in terms of redundancies and ultralighters think of multi uses. You know this one thing maybe a handkerchief could be a sweat bandana, my pot holder, my napkin and, if needed, a bandage in case I get hurt.
Speaker 2:And so you know, I'm like.
Speaker 1:I'm going to bring this one piece of clothing as multiple uses. So same thing when I go on a work trip. I'm looking at the pants can be worn for work and leisure. So I can I can take fewer pairs of pants. I want to bring extra underwear though, because you've got to. That's gross. Not to you say, okay, I bring one of everything and other things. You're like you know what. This has multiple functions to it. I could just bring the one instead of multiple. So I can just do choice. When I go on a work trip, you know it's like it's a casual shoe that can pass as a business shoe, and it's like it's comfortable and it looks good and it's functional.
Speaker 2:So yeah, the same philosophy.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, it's really seeped into everything I do, anywhere I go. I think terms of minimalist approach, less is more, those kinds.
Speaker 2:How did you go from regular backpacking to ultralight?
Speaker 1:Yeah, my initial. So in the history of Jerry, my original camping experiences were the traditional ones that people would call glamping. So you know, joined up with family who had, you know, they drove up to a campsite and you had to unload the car and it just wasn't fun for me. It's like gosh. The cooler is heavy, it's. You know everything's soggy and you know they have all this equipment. You got to track the equipment. You can't lose anything. We always lose something and it just seemed like too much effort to go out in the woods and enjoy the woods.
Speaker 1:At some point I joined the army and I'm like, yeah, this is rugged army type of stuff. I love it. At least I thought that's what I was signing up for. And again, you're bringing lots of equipment, bullets, body armor, but it's still kind of rugged, still kind of cool.
Speaker 1:But a lot of my units were mechanized Mechanized. So it was kind of like car camping anyway, like we're going to convert the home V into a camper. Now it's like, yeah, that's so neat. But what I really wanted to do was like what you see in the movies. You know, we're going to put on a rucksack, we're going to go out in the woods and we're going to do our mission and come back Like I want that. So when I leave the army, there's a good decade that goes by and I don't do any camping, no hiking, no backpacking. I just want to reconnect with nature and have some sort of way to diffuse from the work I do and just kind of reconnect with myself and have time to reflect. And I had read an article about a guy who had also served in Operation Iraqi Freedom.
Speaker 1:So I was in that invasion in 2003 with a third infantry division and I had read an article from Backpacker Magazine about a guy who had been through, I think, afghanistan on a couple of tours to Afghanistan and he was dealing with things like PTSD and depression and like survivors guilt kind of stuff, and he hiked the entire Pacific Crest Trail on his own solo and he wrote about how it just recharged him and allowed him to think through his thoughts, have conversations with himself that he needed to have, and then by the time he finished the 2000 plus miles he was like I feel healed and whole again, wow. And so he still goes out backpacking, from what I understand. But it was like this healing moment for him and I thought one Memorial Day about nine, maybe 10 years ago, I just threw all the weight I could into my rucksack. I had my own personal Army rucksack or backpack and I just loaded all the weight I could into that. I put on my combat boots that I still had. And on Memorial Day this particular year, almost a decade ago, I did a 12 mile road march just to do it and clear my head and it was the most healing thing I could have done in my entire life. It allowed me, in the four hours it took me, to complete those 12 miles. And I know other veterans are like that took you that long? I'm like, yeah, guys, it took me a little long. My legs are short. So if your Army standard is, yeah, quiet, I'm not in the Army, but anyway, like in those four hours though, it just cleared my head, it allowed me to come to terms with going through combat, surviving it, and I thought, wow, that was very recharging for me and it also was inspirational for other people and, of course, they were expecting me to do this every Memorial Day after that.
Speaker 1:Well, that is fun. You know, I want, I want to. If I'm going to do 12 miles, I want to see the woods. I want to. Now, like set up a tent or a hammock. Actually, the hammock came later because I realized tents are heavy. I was like but it's so much cooler. I live in Texas. It's hot out here, tents are just stifling. Oh, hammocks, you can cool underneath. I want that. So, yeah, about eight years ago I did my first little backpacking overnighter, just to try things out. I had a homemade hammock that I made from one of those blue tarps you get at like oh, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:I watched a lot of YouTube videos to create it and I mean, it was one of those blue tarps, so it was hot in the summer. It was not fun at all and I learned later on you got to use material like nylon or sill nylon and be close to water, like there's like a trick to it. But it was so comfortable though, even though it was hot. Yeah, it wasn't on the hard ground and I felt like I was floating in there and I loved it. I fell in love with the sleeping part of backpacking.
Speaker 2:You know, that would probably be the only thing that appeals to me Right, yeah.
Speaker 1:And in a hammock. It is amazing because I call my current hammock the time machine, because every time I get in it I am propelled two hours into the future. Just well, to me it's like that, it's instantaneous. The reality is, two hours really do go by. Yeah, fall asleep. But I realized, yeah, hammocks are comfortable, the system is lighter than intent and nobody in my family is going with me anyway, so I don't have to worry about enough space for people to be in there. And so I kind of fell in love with hammock camping. And then that same overnight trip where I was kind of breaking everything in, I realized my backpack was kind of it wasn't as comfortable as I remember it. Then I remembered it was never comfortable. I hated it when I was in the Army. What's wrong with me? And so I just I wound up in some backpacking groups on Facebook as well as some hammock camping groups and just started to learn about this thing called ultralight backpacking. I was like oh let me try that.
Speaker 1:So first thing I did was I still have the rucksack that I use for ruck marching for a workout. But I immediately switched to a backpack that weighed 10 ounces and 28 liter backpack, so pretty small. I got it at Walmart for like $18, because the alternative was like a big backpack that was made out of some special fabric for $200 to $300. And my wife was like no, we don't make enough for that and you've only gotten once. You're not going to justify a $300 backpack for something you did once. So, yeah, that backpack's now been with me for about seven years 28 liter backpack, very small. I think Walmart sells it as a day pack. So you're throwing a jacket, some water and some snacks and that's the day pack for me. I can do a three to four day trip off of that backpack, really, yeah, and it's light, so what?
Speaker 2:are, depending on the time of year you go and where you're going. What are some of the absolute necessities that you can fit in that ultralight backpack that Walmart thinks it's just a day pack?
Speaker 1:Oh man. So summer and spring is when I have the lightest, smallest pack, so I still have lots of room in there and I get to pack extra snacks. So the basic things that go in there. We're talking about a three day, two night trip. For example, if I'm expecting rain, I have a poncho. Actually, this is I don't know if you use video or not, but my wife got me a poncho slash tarp for Christmas. Uh huh, it's a cute. So if it rains, I've got a poncho. When it's time to set up camp, I've got a tarp and it's like the size of a Coca-Cola can 12 ounce Coca-Cola can yeah, I can see it, and it weighs eight ounces, so half a pound. It replaced a tarp that weighed two pounds or a pound and a half, so that's like rain gear. I've got that. Well, if it's cold, I mean, this becomes like a windshield for me as well.
Speaker 1:Change of clothes I don't really bring a full set of clothes with me. On a three day trip, even a four or five day trip, I've never taken a full change of clothes, maybe an extra pair of underwear and an extra pair of socks, and I find a way to wash those in camp and then they're air dried by the morning. So I've got clean clothes. It's just not a fresh set of clothes for every single day. So that's one way to shed weight is I don't bring as much clothes Now in the car. Brand new set of clothes. I need options. Yes, I am not going to stink up the car because my wife will make fun of me when I get home.
Speaker 1:There is a whole new set of stuff in the car when I'm done with the trip, so in the backpack itself. So some socks, you know. One extra pair, really extra pair of underwear. My sleeping bag it's a down sleeping bag rated to 40 degrees and I got it at Walmart for like 20 bucks. I think it's now like 30 bucks, but yeah, that's my only sleeping bag and I've taken that thing down consistently to about 20 degrees and been just fine. Oh, wow, okay. And it all comes with layering.
Speaker 1:So you know I have like clothing in the wintertime that I'll wear. And then I have a poncho liner. That adds a little bit more weight. The poncho liner is rated to like it's a blanket. It's rated to 50 degrees. Combine it with the sleeping bag. I can now take that system down to about 30 degrees and then, wearing like long johns to sleep in, I can now take my whole system down to about 20 degrees and then underneath me in the hammock, it's not just a sleeping pad that's rated to 50 degrees, Underneath that is just a $1 solar screen that you get at like a dollar store for, like your windshield, and underneath my sleeping pad and I could take that. That whole thing keeps me toasty in 20 degree weather. Wow, so you learn how to layer things and lower our eyes. Is that a word? It is now.
Speaker 2:Yep, it is now. I'm writing it down, yeah.
Speaker 1:Everything works together in some way, shape or form, even like empty your backpack and use that as like a foot cover at night, so you have that extra foot insulation, so you don't get frostbite. So, going back to the summertime though, so yeah, you already got the underwear, the socks, I'll have a. I have an ultralight stove called a BRS 3000. Can we take a number? It's on Amazon, it's like $15. It's made of titanium, very lightweight, not the most efficient stove ever, but it is light and it just screws on with one of those canisters you buy from any store. And my spoon is a bamboo long handle spoon so I can cook and not scrape up my pots or pans.
Speaker 1:And, depending on how I feel, I probably spend more time thinking about what cook kit I'm taking with me. I've got an aluminum pot where, if I'm just boiling water and pouring that into my food to rehydrate, I've got a one quart aluminum pot that weighs like half a pound. But if I want fresh eggs like farm fresh eggs with bacon bits and cheddar cheese and like go to town on breakfast, I take a frying pan I bought at Daiso, so it's not even like an ultralight piece of kit. It is a six inch or eight inch frying pan I found at Daiso for like $5. It weighs under a pound and then I just I look at that frying pan. I'm like, okay, what do I shed To?
Speaker 2:take that.
Speaker 1:To justify the frying pan, yeah, and I'm like well, the extra pair of socks stay, something stupid like that. So there's that, my hammock, a bug net, the straps for the hammock and then I already shown you the tarp. So I've got the basics for shelter, for food prep, and then the basic 10. I've got a small compass, it's like a wristwatch type of, like small toy compass. And then what else? Fire starter, so lighter, and then for backup, matches or a ferro rod, depending on how I feel and where I am on the weight, like if I'm creeping about 10 pounds, it's matches, not the ferro rod, the little iron like flint steel type of things.
Speaker 2:And now being under 10 pounds? Does that count your food as well, or no, just your pack?
Speaker 1:Well, just the pack, the equipment with food, water and fuel. My total pack is around 15 pounds in the summer and spring. In the winter I get up to about 18 pounds.
Speaker 2:Okay, that makes sense.
Speaker 1:Yeah, total weight and a lot of it has to do with like knowing where the water sources are, too like water. Like you start thinking about these things. Like you know how heavy is the food. You know if your food is packaged in tin cans, like you got those are heavy, right, and you got to take the cans out with you. Like it's a very bad form to just leave the cans where you are and I always joke about it. Kind of irks me when people leave like plastic bottles on the trail. It's like seriously, was it heavier empty than it was when you carried it?
Speaker 2:in Exactly.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, it's lighter. You should have less excuse to not carry that thing in. But for me, like water, you know it's two pounds per liter or quart and so if you carry a gallon of water with you, that's eight pounds that you have with you. And one of the things I got used to carrying is this, like Sawyer squeeze. It's in a plastic bag right now because I'm trying to keep it from drying out because it turns out they can dry out. Well, that's a hard way, if you go too long between trips they can dry out. But I have a Sawyer squeeze.
Speaker 1:It's a water filter that fits on top of. I've got like a one liter, like collapsible canteen, kind of like a water bag, and it just screws on top of there and then I use that to squeeze the water into my smart water bottle. So, like the bottles that you can get at the store, the one smart bottles. So a lot of people you'll see them with like now gene bottles, like it's like thick, heavy plastic because they're thinking about it being rugged, but ultralight backpackers like to take as light as possible, so to them you'll see the now gene and it's like that is way too heavy, whereas a smart water bottle not only is light as a feather, but the threads on that bottle fit a water filter perfectly. These are a catadine beef free type of thing, and so it's like already the thinking, if I need to like. If I burst that little bag I used for filtering, I could just put dirty water in the smart bottle, screw my filter on there and drink straight from that.
Speaker 2:Oh, and it filters it, filters it, wow Okay.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So you got like a redundancy without actually packing extra stuff. It's like okay, and so if there's a lot of water sources, I carry just one liter with me at all times. In Texas I wound up carrying two liters.
Speaker 1:And once in a while if I'm so, knowing how much water I need to take in an hour or every three to four miles, you know, till the next water source it's like. So if there's like a water source every three to four miles, I'll carry one liter. If it's going to be about six, seven or eight miles, I'll carry two. If it's a longer stretch than that, I'll camel up. I'll actually have a full gallon on me somewhere. Oh wow, I'm drinking that as fast as I can.
Speaker 2:It's like, especially in Texas too.
Speaker 1:That's how I get so hot. A lot of us out here in Texas don't backpack from, I'd say, may until October.
Speaker 2:That's a good reason.
Speaker 1:If they do, they go out of state. They go to, like Oklahoma, colorado, utah, wherever there's mountains and weather, they'll go there.
Speaker 1:So yeah it's very light. A lot of stuff like the pack is smaller. A lot of my equipment is either cut down to the bare minimum or the types of equipment I carry is the bare minimum. Remember, on one trip I took it was one of my earlier ones and I had this little. I don't have it in here with me, but it's a small little pocket knife that it's a Swiss Army knife. It's got a small like inch and a half blade, maybe a one inch blade on it. It's got a file in case I want to work on my nails, I guess, and scissors and some tweezers. It's very lightweight compared to my other knife it's like a three inch blade Gerber knife and so I switched off for the smaller one because for the most part I don't need a big Rambo knife. I don't need a survival knife. I'm not going to go off the trail and bushcraft I could have a hand too, but I don't have to. That's just not the reason I'm going out there.
Speaker 1:But I remember running into somebody that he had this like staff, like a walking stick. He looked like Gandalf but different, and so he saw me getting my stuff ready to go on the trail and he walked up to see if I wanted to hike out with him. But we were going different paths after all. But I couldn't help but notice he had this like staff, that was his walking stick. At the top of the walking stick he had a big like hunting knife strapped to the top with the sheath on it. But I asked him what that was for and he said you know, in case you run into wild hogs out here, you want to be able to defend yourself. And I was like gosh, I did my research and there are no armadillos and you know, but you don't have to worry about them. I didn't tell this guy that like he was convinced we're going to run into hogs out here. But I already knew from my research we weren't going to run into that. But you know, everybody hikes their own hike.
Speaker 1:But I also noticed he not only had this basically a spear on his shoulder strap of his backpack, he had like a Marine Corps K bar knife ready to go on his hip. He had another survival knife ready to go. Like the guy had like four knives on him just in case. And that was like one of the things that just blew my mind was like this guy carried three knives too many because of the phrase just in case. And you see a lot of people pack themselves down with just in cases. You know, I'm going to bring a poncho and a rain suit just in case. I'm going to bring this extra food or this extra water just in case. I'm going to bring an extra set of clothes all together just in case. And all these add up to a heavy pack. And something I heard a backpacker a neutral light backpacker say was that we tend to pack our fears.
Speaker 2:I was absolutely going to say that. I was like you, always want to be prepared and and you have the time you don't know what you're preparing yourself for. Sometimes, what what you're preparing yourself for is far worse than what reality is going to happen.
Speaker 1:Exactly. Yeah, you know we're expecting to run into, like this guy, a pack of hogs out in the middle of nowhere and I've actually run into a pack of hogs before. But I kept my distance, you know, I just kept my head on a swivel and I saw them. They're like 100 yards away.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'd be up the first tree.
Speaker 1:Well, I stood there just wondering what do you do when you're faced with a pack of wild hogs? I didn't know, like I was like I researched bobcats they run away from you. I researched deer they run away from you. I researched birds unless you're dead, they're not going to pick on you. I was like wild hogs. I should have researched wild hogs. Okay, when I get home, if I make it out of this, they're 100 yards away. They were never coming towards me, but I looked it up later on. It's like they're almost blind as a bat. Like they, they're sticking to their, their what's right in front of them. They're looking for truffles, they're looking for grubs. As long as you don't spook them. When you're right up on them, you give them their space, they're going to move on. I was like all right, cool, that's good to know.
Speaker 2:For next time? Yeah, yeah, yeah, you know. I wanted to ask you. In one you mentioned that your family doesn't go with you. Do you always backpack alone?
Speaker 1:Most of the time, yes, because my family doesn't like to go out there. Now a lot of my friends tell me they want to go out there and be manly men and let's go. And I'm sorry, guys, I'm going to throw you under the bus here. Every time we've planned a trip, it evolves like this it starts off with one guy saying we need to reconnect with God and just be manly men and get out in nature and commune with each other. Commune with what God has created, and that's that's. And you'll just talk about how his parents were Marines and he, you know, he leaves out the part where he wasn't. But he's like he gets everybody riled up and like, great, well, I'm available this weekend, this one and this one. And somebody else says, well, I'm available for that one. And the other guy says, yep, me too, and so we get a date longer. Boom, well, that first guy goes radio silent for the next two months. He just put his money where his mouth is, and so that's him. He disappears off the map. He's not involved in planning at all.
Speaker 1:Now the other guys who commit. One of them starts asking hey, so is it like a place where we could drive a Jeep up to, because I have the like this new setup with my Jeep and I'd love to be able to like just unroll that. He's talking more overlanding, and the other guy that's committed, he's like is there going to be running water out there? It's called a river. Yeah, I mean like facilities, I need facilities, and it's like. And then the other guy is like, yeah, you know, it'd be really great if we could like plug in a plasma TV and watch some movies out there about camping. And I'm like, so what it evolves to is, you know, it's it's going to be glamping in the end.
Speaker 1:And so I go on occasion with them just to appease them and make them feel like they're they're getting out there. But if I want to get out there, I just need to go. And so, like last minute, it's like you know what I've got a three or four day weekend. I didn't expect my family's all got plans for themselves. I can hit this trail, get there in four hours, and this is my out and back. Or I can do a loop and it's like planned right away and there's no time to get other people on board. But I do have a small group of friends there in a Facebook group called Backpacking and Hiking Texas and we meet up at a place once every year or two at Los Maple State Natural Area and there's like eight to 12 of us at a given moment and we kind of just see what everybody's got and it's like the one time we get together.
Speaker 2:Nice, Nice, I was thinking you know safety wise. Now I know you're former military, but even just safety wise to be out. And again I'm looking at it through my lens of yeah, there's no way in hell you'll get me out in the woods alone by myself, with the potential of wild hogs. But from a from a safety perspective. Have you ever, you know, started getting somebody to go with, just in case? Here we go again.
Speaker 1:I, I asked folks and a lot of times they're not available. The one time where I did become like a liability to folks was a time when I went with a group, but then again it was East Texas during the summertime, like July and very hot, so it was like 98 degrees, but with the humidity it felt like 100 something and I was woefully underprepared for that. So it was with a group of four other hikers and they almost had to carry me out of there because I was pushing myself, because I was around people. It was like a false sense of security, with all this knowing what my body is capable of and being aware of like I've got to make myself rest every hour getting some shade, sit down, drink water, drink a certain amount of water, eat some salty snacks, eat some beef jerky and just rest for 10 minutes. Finding myself to be aware of time, distance and making myself rest because the military guy and me will just push on until I hit the destination. You can die later, just get there. And it's like no, you got to take breaks, you got to rest, it's okay to rest. So then my stepdad had taught me was because he and I did a trip a few years ago and he was stopping like every gosh, I'd say 300 to 400 yards, mostly for me to catch up to him, because we have longer. We're going up a mountain and he's resting just a few seconds, just enough for me to catch my breath, and then we move on because he knows I'm also acclimating to this mountain and so just taking the time he's like the trail's going to be there. We've got everything we need, ideally. Yes, we'd like to get to this destination, but you got to get to the destination healthy and alive.
Speaker 1:There's some safety things that I put into place. When I go out alone, I get a map, I print off a map of where I'm going and I mark off of there for my wife. This is where I'm going to park, this is where I plan to be, this is my route, no matter what. This is my route. So I'm going to do this loop, I'm going to go out and back, whatever it is. So this is my route and I'll highlight that on the map. This is where I plan to camp on day one. On night number two, we'll be here and then I should be back to the car by this time. You should hear from me by noon of this day, driving back already Worst case scenario three or four o'clock because I decided to lull a gag on the last day. Whatever it, is.
Speaker 1:You should hear from me by then. There's not going to be signal out there, so there's no way for me to get in touch with you. So if I'm not back by Monday, you know exactly where to send people and she knows I'm good at land navigation.
Speaker 1:Because of that I was really good at land navigation, like I could tell you what mountain I'm on. If you give me a good map and you give me some good as in this to play with, where some landmarks to look at, I can tell you by triangulation this is where I am and that's if I need it. I mean, my phone has a GPS on it, so it's like this is exactly where I am. I know where I am. So, yeah, I stay on trail. I don't go off the beaten path. I stayed on my route and there's plenty to see on the route and I try to stick to my timetable just so I could be back to when I need to be back, being aware of water sources. So that's the other thing, like from running low on water, I don't push it.
Speaker 1:Food again, making myself eat, rest, resting my feet, checking my feet, making sure my feet stay dry. So that's another beautiful thing about ultralight backpacking you got less weight on you and so therefore, your shoes don't have to be these heavy weight boots. You see a lot of people with big hiking boots and then they laugh at me when I show up with like these knit running shoes, like these very lightweight running shoes and what are those? I'm like these are my hiking shoes. And I'm like are you insane? We're going over rocks. I'm like, yeah, my backpack weighs 15 pounds, how about you? And they're like it's like 40. Like, well you boots? I don't. I'm much more nimble. My feet don't collect water because they're mesh tops, so it's just in my feet are always.
Speaker 1:And so I've never had a blister hiking ultralight, whereas I got blisters all the time hiking in boots and the heavy pack. So with this ultralight pack, with the lightweight shoes, I'm moving faster, I'm seeing more stuff.
Speaker 2:I would imagine you could. If you, if, if you were with other folks, you could actually go deeper into your hike or deeper off the beaten path, because your pack is so much lighter and you and you have everything you need, and I would expect that maybe that would lead to some really unique experiences that most hikers don't get to have, because it's you know too dangerous. With 40, 50 pounds on their back, what? What have been some of the the wow moments from your light or your ultralight backpacking adventures?
Speaker 1:Man, some of my favorite ones. The most recent trip, second the most recent trip, I went to Big Bend National Park and a cowboy camp. So I didn't even have hammock, not allowed to hang anything up anyway, and I just had ground cloth, sleeping bag, stars, and it was. It was nighttime, I was kind of winding down. I had a little bit of signal so I was texting him like, hey, what you know here, check this picture out.
Speaker 1:I took this earlier today on a day hike and I heard some rustling about 15, 20 feet away from me. I look over my shoulder and it's a coyote, oh God, and it's sniffing around because my, my buddy, who did go out there with me, he was like, what do we do with, like, the water from our dishes? I'm like, well, you just disperse it. Uh, some backpacks are like, no, you drink it. I'm like, no, that's gross, I'm not doing that. So I showed him how you disperse it and you just spray it like, so it has almost no scent. He dispersed it all into one bush, and this coyote smelled it. And so he sniffed around that bush and I'm like, oh boy, there's a coyote right there, which is cool. If I stay quiet, he's not going to notice me, but then he noticed me and he came up like a puppy dog and I'm like oh no, no, no, no.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And I'm like I'm trying to scare it away. But this thing was, this coyote was so comfortable with me that it like cowered and like creeping up to me for a snack. I'm like, no, no, no, I had nothing go get away.
Speaker 1:And so it started to go away and I don't know why, but I wanted to make some more noises to spook it, but instead I made I don't know why, but I went, I called him back to me and he got happy. He's like, oh yeah. And he's like, oh my gosh, he thinks I have food. I don't have food on me and so, finally this is why I don't have a picture of him I'm trying, like, while I'm keeping my eye on the coyote, I'm trying to find my trekking pole so I have something in case he attacks. And I'm trying, like, without looking at my phone, to activate the light so I can shine it at the coyote and scare it. And I'm trying to do all this at the same time and he's just kind of getting closer. He's looking for a. Finally, I get the light on and I, I stand up, like another Gandalf reference. I stand up, I put my arms out wide and I say I'm bigger than you, it's enough running and left.
Speaker 1:But as soon as that was done, I texted my family. I'm like you won't believe what just happened. This was so cool. And they're like dad. This is why we don't go. We would all be in the car leaving or at least on the trail running, and you're like this was so cool. I'm like I knew what I was involved with, like I had enough awareness of, like okay, the the Coyote came up to me because somebody had fed it yeah, open, fed on a regular basis so it associated me with dinner, not as I was dinner, but I had dinner to give him. And so I was aware of that and I had to kind of remind it. No, no, no, no, you got to go and it's that campsite was just on its circuit, you know, whatever two or three day route it does. Huh, that was part of out.
Speaker 2:So that was one of them alone.
Speaker 1:He was by himself. Yeah, no pack, huh, no pack. Now I heard them later on in the night, like three or four in the morning. I'm like, okay, well, they're far away, but that one was alone. That I know of. But Paternalis Falls State Park in Texas, and I was able to set my hammock up at the ledge of a cliff and it was like a 40 or 50 foot drop, but I set it up so that I, when I woke up, I could look through the trees and see the river going by. Pretty, it was so nice and this is like November, so there were no leaves and and sure enough, in the morning I heard birds chirping. I look out of my hammock I'm still resting quite comfortably in my hammock and I just look to my left and there's the river, and I could hear the river running over the rocks. Ah, this is it, this is the life, and it was so cool to wake up like that. And so that's another one.
Speaker 1:And then the trip I took with my stepdad probably the most adventurous, I would say. That was a Wintertime, just after Christmas. We, we had a campfire going, and then that night was also very cold, it was like 15 degrees. This is when I learned how to layer properly, because I didn't do it properly that day. I had my 40 degree Sleeping bag. I had all my clothes on, but my underside insulation was not there, so it was a cold night. I remember waking up in the middle of the night. We were not in eyesight of each other.
Speaker 1:Okay yeah, the trees I needed for my hammock were quite a distance from him, but I remember hearing wrestling In, cracking of leaves and so on and I thought it was my stepdad in the middle of the night going to the bathroom. That's why I'm up, that it's cold, so I do my business. I get back in my hammock and I still hear that rustling around. I'm like wow, what is he digging?
Speaker 2:God.
Speaker 1:It's cold, I'd wait till morning and start a fire. And yeah, it's cold, it's. So when morning came, he's, he's up. He's already drinking a cup of coffee. He's got his breakfast going. I get my breakfast go. And he asked how I slept. I said really well. And he asked if I got up at all. It's like yeah, a couple of times to go to the bathroom and and how about you? And he goes now, once I'm in my tent, I'm out. The whole night I was like huh.
Speaker 2:What, what did you hear? Did you go looking for footprints?
Speaker 1:I Well, our food bag was in that area, and he just says it matter of factly, because he's from North Carolina. He's, he looks like Sylvester Stallone, but with a thick country accent. Like, yeah, I'm out all night, you just once. I'm in that tent, I'm sleeping. I slept good, it wasn't, it was nice, I was nice and cozy.
Speaker 1:He's like why I was like well, I heard something wrestling around where your tent area was and I thought it was you going to the bathroom. He goes nope, I was out. You know, I could have been, though, could have been a bear. Think, maybe, maybe that that bear we heard had some cubs, and Where'd you hear the rustling? And I pointed and he goes oh, isn't our food over there? I'm like yeah, it is. He goes, you know what? I think it was after our food. He's just like kind of cool about it. I'm saying I'm thinking I'm sorry what? There was a bear in our campsite and I was up and out of my hammock when it was in our campsite. Like we go. He goes, yeah, I figured the park rangers gonna be up here anyway, because we had a campfire. Okay, let's go. And so when I saw you know the area where I heard the wrestling. There were scratch marks in the trees.
Speaker 1:That was not so it had been there and it had found our food. It was scratching the tree to try to get the food. Scratching the tree just because they scratch trees and on the whole hike out. There are multiple trees where we saw bear sign, like scratches in the trees that weren't there the day before. He goes. Wow, you know, I think the bear came up this way. Yeah, thank you. So the bear is ahead of us, not behind us. He goes. Hey, ma be, you think it'd be at the car he goes. Well, I hope not, because we gotta go. It was no, or it nowhere near us. There was nothing in the parking lot when we got back to the car.
Speaker 2:What advice do you have for somebody that wants to transition into Ultralight backpacking? I mean it's lighter. So you know Common sense, those. To me it's lighter. I ain't getting any younger. It's gonna be easier for me to To maintain. You know what I want to do when I'm out on a trail, and when I say I I mean figuratively, don't mean literally, and you know that it's easier on your body. You know the, the simplicity of it. I think is Is something that would be really attractive. But if somebody is really Tried and true regular backpacker, what advice would you have if they were interested in transitioning?
Speaker 1:Yeah, the first thing that I got was one of those kitchen scales the real small ones that you can wear your food yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So I have one of those. It's like right outside this podcast studio, like in my home office, because I'm Jerry, once in a while I just want to weigh a carabiner, my stuff. So get one of those and get a free account on a website called lighter packcom, okay, and you can inventory all your gear and kind of mix and match everything so that you know what you're packing or what you're gonna weigh before you even put it all together.
Speaker 1:From there I look at the big three. The big three are the pack, the back or the other backpack, the sleeping bag and your shelter. So, whether that's a tarp or a tent, and if you can reduce the weight on those three things alone, you're you're gonna see the biggest weight savings. Now it could get more expensive. Now my route I went to Walmart 28 liter pack. It forces me to bring less Because I also have a pack that's 40 liters and I always overpack and like I'm never ultralight when I take that, it's like I could take the stool, I could take a second stove and bacon at the same time.
Speaker 1:It's like I started thinking about those extras and it started creeping in. So, yeah, a cheap backpack that's got enough size to go spring or summer. Look at your, your sleeping bag. If it's a polyester type of fill, you can get a good down one off of Walmart for like $30. I think. It's ready down 40 degrees. But again, summertime you, unless you live up in the mountain top, you don't need anything below 40 degrees. It's spring and summer and so you don't need a 10 degree sleeping bag in the summertime. It's you're just gonna kick it off anyway. And then tents. You know, for some folks that might be the last thing they want to get rid of. For me it was one of the first things I ditched, I ditched, I ditched the tent all together to go hammock camping. So I just needed a hammock and a tarp and I started looking at that system.
Speaker 1:But those are the big three backpack, shelter and sleeping okay and Bring that down to what you realistically need For the season you're going camping and and be. You know like you don't need a three season tent. If you're going out during the summertime, you might just need to tarp in a bug net, and so you know, just looking at, what do I really need for this?
Speaker 2:So last, question what's your next big adventure, what's your next big challenge?
Speaker 1:There's a friend of mine who does sections of the Appalachian Trail. He's one of the guys who is not a backpacker, so he's been telling me for years that what he would love to do is, since I want a section hike and he just wants to hike during the day, he could drop me off at like point A. He'll drive to point B, hike back until he meets up with me. We hike the rest of the way to point B, camp in the woods somewhere, so I'm always on the trail doing my thing where it's popping.
Speaker 1:Wherever the trip is for that week or two weeks, he's my ride to the airport, so he's picking me up because he'll drive out there. We'll leapfrog sections like that and he'll take me to where I need to go to get home.
Speaker 1:So I threw it at him like, hey, we should plan that. So I don't know when, but I'd say early 2024,. I'll start checking off the bucket list that I've hiked the Appalachian Trail. I'm not through hike the thing, but I think hitting in sections and getting all of it that way will still make me happy. But between now and 2024, there are a couple of spots in Oklahoma that I haven't been to yet. Broken bow, that area is very beautiful, that's nice. There's a loop there that I think I want to break in and use as a break in kind of dust, the cobwebs off, kind of thing. And then Eagle Rock Loop in Arkansas is a 28, I think, or almost 30 mile loop. It's got river crossings, very beautiful alams, lots of pine trees, bears, it's going to be fun. So I want to do more of that. And yeah, just see, because I've done a lot of Texas. Texas is flat, it's hot, it's kind of the same old thing. I want to get up in Oklahoma and hit some of those trails. Oh, that's awesome, awesome.
Speaker 2:Jerry, I can't thank you enough for your time. I loved having this conversation with you. Where can folks find you online?
Speaker 1:Yeah, so my podcast is called Beyond the Rut and it's a show about sharing stories and practical tools that help you create the life that you feel is worth living in your faith, your family and career. And you can find that at beyondtherutcom and that's got links to the podcast episodes, blog posts. I don't think I have my book on there. So if you want the book, which is like the 124 page version of the podcast it's called Beyond the Rut Create a Life Worth Living in your Faith, family and Career and that's on Amazon you can go to beyondtherutcom. It'll take you right there. And if you want to listen to it and you don't want to pay for it or you don't have the money for it, I still want you to get the content. You can get the audiobook for free beyond therutcom and you just felt the form and I'll email you access to the audiobook.
Speaker 2:Awesome, jerry. I'll have all those links in your show notes. And again, thank you so much. I've learned a lot I. There's always a big joke. I have a very good friend who is an avid hiker and the joke is, you'll never get me out there. But if I could pack lightly and guarantee no bears or snakes, that's the big one. I mean talk about this.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I may consider joining her for a little section of her section of the Appalachian Trail when she gets up to Massachusetts.
Speaker 1:So, jerry, If she doesn't eat day training, just do a day hike with her.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I told her it had to be flat. I have requirements.
Speaker 1:Don't bring her in my room, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, she said there's a part out on Western Mass that's very flat, like Charlton Mass area, so who knows? But I will definitely stay in touch with you and again, cannot thank you enough for all your time tonight.
Speaker 1:Oh, my pleasure. Thank you so much.
Speaker 2:Jerry is such a super down to earth guy and I really had fun chatting with him. I learned a lot about ultralight backpacking and some of the reasons he's so passionate about it, From the cathartic heavy duty hike he did on Memorial Day to the commuting with nature he's able to do on his solo trips, and even the quality time he spends with his friends glamping or dodging bears with his stepdad. And of course, we can't forget the wild boars. This man will never run out of stories. Although I'm not chomping at the bit to go hiking, what really resonated with me about his passion was what a great metaphor for traveling through life ultralight backpacking is. Don't pack your fears. Take what you really need, because what you don't need just weighs you down, slows you down and keeps you from being in the moment. And traveling lightly helps you go further, explore more, experience more and enjoy more, and for those reasons I'm becoming a fan of the ultralight backpacking mindset.
Speaker 2:If you're interested in learning more about Jerry, his podcast Beyond the Rut or any of the resources he talked about, jump down to the show notes for all the links and if you're enjoying the content, it would help me grow the podcast if you could do two quick things Written review the podcast, especially if you're a Spotify or Apple podcast listener. A five-star written review helps get the podcast in front of others who might enjoy the content as well. And the second thing share the podcast with a friend or your Facebook network or your LinkedIn network. Short shows, word of mouth. Podcast recommendations are the number one way podcast listeners find new content to listen to.
Speaker 2:I'd appreciate it if you could help the podcast out in those two ways, and I would also love to connect with you on social media so you can connect with me on the Assorted Conversations podcast Facebook page In our Facebook community, where you can interact with other listeners as well as our guests. Follow the podcast on Twitter and Instagram, or you can simply just drop me an email at aconvosepod at gmailcom. All the links are in the show notes. So until next time, be bold, be blind to your challenges and follow your passions. Thanks for listening and I'll see you in two weeks.
