Assorted Conversations
Are you intrigued, inspired and just have to learn more when you find someone who is boldly embracing their dreams? Make plans to join me every other Wednesday as I share stories from everyday people following their passions and pursuing happiness.
Have some laughs, learn about a specific passion and develop an understanding of how and why these guests are turning their dreams into realities, plus possibly get inspired to begin your own journey!
Assorted Conversations
Ep. 42 - The Horror Filmmaker Conversation with Jason Morris
We sit down with award-winning indie filmmaker Jason Morris to map the real path from micro-budget ideas to memorable horror-comedy and lasting rights. He shares hard-won lessons on distribution, festivals, team culture, and why owning your work changes everything.
• leaving film school to learn the business
• first feature Hellhouse and distributor pitfalls
• why owning rights keeps films alive
• starting a distribution label and seeing scams
• building reality projects without hype
• Haunted Objects format choices and host value
• Echoes of the Unknown and oversaturation
• Space Rodent concept, tone, and creature design
• improvisation, practical effects, and on-set wins
• making a feature for $2,000 with resources
• passion vs paychecks on teams
• guidance for writers without budgets
• learning by working every crew role
• finding or starting local film communities
• running festivals and rising venue costs
• what festivals taught about audience memory
• awards at HorrorHound and defining success
• favorite collaborators and wow moments
• creature dreams, Pumpkinhead, and influences
• where to watch and how to follow Jason
Space Rodent is in pre-order now at resurrectionfilms.net and deadendfilms.org
#buzzsprout #horror #horrorfilm #podmatch #jasonmorris #resurrectionfilms #deadendfilms #interview #podcast
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Credits
Music Credit: True Living by Patrick Moore
Royalty free music license purchased at soundotcom.com
Everyday people following their passions.
SPEAKER_01:That's probably like one of the highlights of my life so far. Just being able to be creative like that. Something I've always wanted.
SPEAKER_03:And then I decided to get another hive, and that turned into a lot of hives.
SPEAKER_01:As long as I can do that, I want to be a good citizen, help people out.
SPEAKER_08:Putting themselves out there, taking chances, and navigating challenges along the way.
SPEAKER_05:I I absolutely identified with having stage right because, you know, anytime I went on stage, I just felt like I was having a hot attack.
SPEAKER_02:Very first lap, very first practice session, I crashed, turned the car upside down, made a spectacle of myself, and I got back on that horse and started riding again.
SPEAKER_08:As they pursue what makes them happy and brings them joy.
SPEAKER_00:As long as people are having a good time and I have the opportunity to put smiles on people's faces, I love what I do.
SPEAKER_03:I have done things that I never thought I could do. To have somebody tell me how real it looks and how, you know, from their actual memory. Because that's telling me I captured what I was trying to get. Welcome to Assorted Conversations.
SPEAKER_08:I'm your host, Helen. I'm back. I'm so excited to be back. I've missed podcasting. I've missed you. Um, but my absence for their for the better part of the last two years is due to some medical issues that I've I've had to work through and continue living with. But um I am on the mend and I am back in the saddle and ready to continue having great conversations with folks who are following their passions and pursuing happiness. This week's conversation is with an independent horror filmmaker in honor of my favorite month, Spooky October. So take a listen to this week's episode, and I'll see you on the other side. Today's guest is Jason Morris, an award-winning indie filmmaker dedicated to exploring the strange, the unsettling, and the unexpectedly funny corners of cinema. Jason is here to share his journey as a filmmaker, the challenges of producing films on small budgets, and how he creates stories that both entertain and subvert expectations. I am so happy to welcome Jason to Assorted Conversations. Hi, Jason.
SPEAKER_04:Hi, how's it going? Thank you for having me.
SPEAKER_08:Thanks for being here. Um, again, you are in my favorite month and you are in um an industry and a topic that is near and dear to my heart, of the spookiness. Um, and I'm I'm really interested in finding out how you got involved with this. What inspired you to become a filmmaker and how did your whole journey begin?
SPEAKER_04:That's a it, you know, the older you get, the bigger of a question that gets the journey never ends, right? But ultimately, it started uh in high school. I was sort of like um lost. My dad wanted me to sort of like become part of his business. He was in construction, um, and it was something I just wasn't really interested in. And I ended up taking a class in high school called um uh designing careers, where you had to sort of like find a career. It was the whole purpose of the class. Somehow I just came across film director and it had a really high net worth like amount that you make per year, which is ridiculous if you're looking at something like that. Um, and I was like, oh, that sounds interesting. And uh I really started looking into it, and I already loved films, but I didn't know that that was something that you could really look at as a career per se, right? Um, this is the you know mid 90s. Uh you have people like Robert Rodriguez blowing up, Kevin Smith, you know, all those people, um, Tarantino. Um, so I started looking into it, found a local film school up here in San Francisco, um, and right out of high school, went into film school. Um, quickly learned that film school uh doesn't teach you the business side. Right. Um teach you a lot of hands-on stuff, which can be helpful if you just want to be a crew, right? Um, but if you want to kind of be a producer and create your own stuff, you really need to learn the business side. So I I quit film school and immediately went and just uh dove headfirst and making a feature film. So huge, huge challenge, huge interesting uh learning curve. But um, you know, it was amazing, and I really haven't stopped since. You know, I've had little lulls here and there, but um, you know, with family and life and whatnot. But ultimately I just uh I've just been continuing to go.
SPEAKER_08:That's fantastic. What what was the first it what was the first feature film that you you jumped into?
SPEAKER_04:So the first uh the first movie that I did was called Hellhouse. Um yeah. And uh we we uh star I I found a guy online who wrote a short story, which I I liked, and then we had uh got permission from him to adapt it into a feature. Um, and this is the first time I've written a script, and it ended up being massively long. So I enlisted a couple friends to sort of help rewrite it and adjust that. And um, so we got it down to a workable, you know, length script. And um with a buddy of mine came up with the budget. I think we had like a$15,000 budget. And my favorite part of this is like looking back, uh, we hit we had a decent budget for what we were doing, uh, but it we only ended up spending like 9,000 of it. Uh huh. So so we had a ton left, and we just didn't know what we were doing or what to do with it and that kind of stuff. So um part the word party didn't it didn't enter in. You know, it it didn't, it does now. You know, setting up a premiere for the casting crew, having a having a party for everybody, you know, all there's all kinds of things that I know I could do with it now. Back then it was kind of like, oh, all you hear about is like, you know, movies that um do well, um come in on schedule and under budget, and we're like, yay, we got part of that, right? Yeah, so that was great. Um, so we thought we were doing well, you know. Um, but you know, you the more that you do, the more you learn, and I guess sophisticated you get at the process, you know, not necessarily better at what you do, but you get smarter with what you do, with what you have.
SPEAKER_08:Right, right. Oh, good point. So, what happened with Hellhouse?
SPEAKER_04:So um I knew early on that um if I was gonna do this, I would want to make sure that whatever I do gets out to the world, right? So this is this is right before YouTube and Facebook and all that kind of really took off. Um, the very, very first project that I did was a web series before web series ever existed. Um, and that was called Millennium Apocalypse. Um, and uh so I had a little bit of um knowledge from distributing on the internet, and I knew I didn't want to do that this time. I wanted to like have an actual movie in video stores because those were around at the time. Um, so I went searching. Uh you know, the internet is really your friend. I would talk to people, I would search the internet looking for like a traditional distributor that releases you know movies to the masses. Um, and we eventually found one. Um, and as classic stories go with filmmakers, um, we got screwed. Uh we never will we I think we received um one check for$50, I think, um, which is nothing, but yeah, it was in stores. Right. You know, so it's hard to reconcile that as a young person, um, you know, kind of working that hard and seeing uh where it goes. So um that's ultimately what happened with it. And and what I've learned from that experience is uh own your own your movies, own your stuff. Right. Um, the more that you own and you can keep control of it, the more you can do in the future because you never know what's going to happen and how technology is going to change and that sort of thing.
SPEAKER_07:Right.
SPEAKER_04:And today, because I was able to sort of retain that ownership after that contract was up, um, it's been the highest grossing movie that I've ever made. Wow. Um, which blows my mind because you know it's not great. It's it's the first thing that I've done. But whether it's the artwork or the title or whatever it might be, um, especially during Halloween, you know, uh October times, people watch it.
SPEAKER_07:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:You know, nobody likes it, but they watch it. And you know, and that's there's sort of like a that's okay, you know. It it's helping, you know, and and it's understandable because you can see your own flaws and your own stuff that you create. And um, you know, you're you're typically your own worst enemy in that respect. Um, and so there's a lot of like, oh, agreeance in that, but also like thank you for watching. I mean, it's there there's a part of it that's cathartic, right? Right. Um, just to know that people are kind of like, whatever it was that got them there, they're there, and they saw it through. Yeah. Um, so yeah, so uh distribution really is is is my end goal and always has been from the beginning.
SPEAKER_08:Yeah, yeah. And uh again, uh from the the quality of the movie or the title or you know, whatever it is, not a bad first outing.
SPEAKER_04:No, really not, you know. I mean, it's like the very first distributor and and seeing how that went really sort of like allows you to adjust, well, what am I gonna do next and how am I gonna move forward with with the next film kind of thing?
SPEAKER_07:Right.
SPEAKER_04:Um, and so from that I went straight into like figuring out uh because that's kind of like how I am. Like if there's something that I don't know, I try to figure out how to do it, right? And I'm not always successful, but um, you know, coming off that experience, I was like, I'm gonna start my own distribution company. And and I did that for a few years, and and I ended up distributing like 20 titles, and ultimately it was right at the point where uh Netflix was taking over with streaming, and that was coming into the picture. So DVDs and Blu-rays and stuff like that were falling off, video stores were closing, and that was really at the time you couldn't you couldn't see there weren't avenues for VOD like there are today for digital streaming. Um Netflix was really the only only one doing it, and to make money you have to have more than one outlet. Right, you gotta have more than one store selling a Blu-ray or a DVD, and that was dwindling. And then one of our major middlemen, uh, it was a company called Victory Multimedia, just started not paying people. Um, I I think that they sort of like foresaw stores closing and and sales dropping, and all of a sudden they just stopped paying uh the money, and uh so that caused smaller distributors to kind of get decimated. Uh because you know, and ideally, like um not ideally, but uh what would really happen is you would live paycheck to paycheck uh with with sort of uh that sort of entity with trying to get these smaller movies out. Um but it was a ride and it I learned a lot and I learned sort of like how to speak to distributors and uh kind of ask for what you want and you don't have to say yes. That thing that's the biggest thing with uh uh filmmakers in general, um, is that they're so excited uh that somebody's interested in their movie, yeah. Right, that it's like if it's a bad deal, they still say yes, because it's like, well, what all what other options do I have? And it's like keep it, hang on to it. YouTube is now an option, you know. Um there's all kinds of things out there. It doesn't mean that it's gonna be a huge hit or anything, but you know, zero percent of a hundred percent that they're making doesn't get you anything. Exactly. You know, if if you're getting pennies from YouTube or something like that, you're getting something, you know. Um, so filmmakers just gotta be really careful with that kind of stuff. And that's sort of my my personal journey is like really taught me that with distributors and and just to be careful and find a way to uh trust them, you know, whether it's reaching out to other filmmakers that they've distributed or just having conversations with them and seeing what they're about and why they do what they do. Um yeah, so it's a it's a dangerous, it's a dangerous road to lose your film. And there's been a lot of horror stories, especially recently, with different companies kind of going under or just sort of disappearing and holding on to those rights to those people's films and them having a hell of a time getting them out.
SPEAKER_07:Wow.
SPEAKER_04:Um which is terrible because they're still out there and being distributed, right? So this company still has them, but there's no communication, there's no checks coming in, there's no reporting, they're just like ghosting filmmakers. Um, so that's that's really hard, and that can really, you know, if you put all of your eggs into a single basket sort of uh scenario with that, that could kill a filmmaker. They can't go on and and do another movie, or if they've had investors, then I mean those investors aren't gonna investigate because they're not seeing any return. What's the point? Right, right. Distribution is dangerous, yeah.
SPEAKER_08:Like you said, there's a business side to everything, yeah, especially if it's a cre if it's a creative um field. I find the the the disparity between the two just is so huge. You know, and in and thinking about the creative nature of what you do, you are not just a filmmaker, you have a variety of different projects that you've worked on, and some of which I'm I'm really interested in seeing. Um, I've seen trailers, and you've really piqued my curiosity, but you've got Echoes of the Unknown, which is a documentary exploring and kind of challenging the world of cryptids and you know the the world as we know it. Is it really what we've been told or is there something else going on? Totally, totally intrigued me. I'm I think that's a series. Correct me if I'm wrong.
SPEAKER_04:So Haunted Objects was interesting because um there is a a big media company called Joblo uh Inc. or Joblo Media, um, and they do a lot of um like um reporting on the end of entertainment industry. They started a new channel on YouTube called the Paranormal Network. So they were looking for new shows. Um and I had a friend that was working there, and so we came up with this idea uh called Haunted Objects, which was sort of like a mix between um uh uh what what is that um old TV show uh with the guy from Star Trek, Beyond Belief, I think it was. Okay. Uh or factor fiction, I think it was. I don't know. He would he would they would present a story of something, and then you would decide, is this real or was it, you know, oh okay anyway. It was sort of like a combination of that where we would present like um uh a haunted object and tell the story behind it. Um and and we didn't want to like embellish it, we wanted to sort of like this is what's been reported, right? And we're not taking any sort of stock in like is it true or not? This is just what the story is. Um and I felt that was kind of important, especially for 100 objects, because um there's too much out there in the world, like uh Zack Baggins type stuff, where he's really pushing this like obviously over-the-top kind of narrative towards these things to make them too interesting, right? And it just comes off fake. So we didn't really want to do that. We know we wanted to just really report on these objects as they have been presented in history in the best way that we can from the information that's around. And I mean, we go way back in some of these um uh uh uh objects, and and some of them are more recent, um, because there's been a lot of people that have sort of been coming out of the woodworks and uh finding new uh new things to make themselves popular that aren't exactly you know real. Like we there there's for a time uh people listing haunted objects on eBay to stuff. Yeah, um, which I mean they're making a lot of money off of these things that are just you know a store-bought doll or something like that. You know, it becomes kind of uh an odd sort of like field for people that um I I think that just becomes a money grab for a lot of people, you know. Right. Um so all those things were really interesting to us, and and haunted objects was great because uh we got to work with an actor, uh Evan O'Hare is the host in the show, and he's just amazing, he's just a perfect host. And we got the shot in this spooky old like uh antique store, which is like we didn't have to do anything set dressing.
SPEAKER_08:Right, yeah, it's just there.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, so it was beautiful. It was a really beautiful um series that we did for Joe Blow. And again, going back to like the distribution model, my my contract with this and with them was uh after this is over, if this channel doesn't work out, I I want to own my show. Yeah, right. So they ended up paying for it um every episode, and uh at the end, after the the channel ultimately didn't do the numbers that they wanted it to, um we got to retain our show. So we uh decided we're we're gonna cut this into a feature and release it and you know out to the world on our own. Um and before we got a chance to do that, I got linked up with a new distributor um and talked to them about it. And they don't typically release this kind of material like uh reality shows or that or documentaries, that kind of thing. Um, but they were willing to take a chance. So I had um Echoes of the Unknown and I had Haunted Objects, we're both sort of reality-based. And um they're like, so let's do this. Since you have so much material on haunted objects, let's split it up into like um a larger episodic thing. We'll do a volume one and a volume two. Um so right now, volume one is out. Um you can find that on like Amazon and and wherever streaming is at. I'm writing this down.
SPEAKER_06:Okay.
SPEAKER_04:Volume two, I I'm not sure when it's gonna come out, but it'll be out at some point, you know, once once the first one, you know, makes its uh makes its way a bit. And then um Echoes of the Unknown is a little bit more um uh obscure, really. Um I love the cryptid stuff. Yeah, you know, and and it's not just cryptic. We tried to cover all of the sort of mysteries. There, there's uh aliens, there's telekinesis, there's cryptids, there's all kinds of different um supernatural sort of things that um people experience in the world, you know. And again, like haunted objects, we've tried to base it as much in reality and reporting and things that are true to life that that we've seen, um, from government testing to you know, real accounts of like an anomalies, you know, like the Phoenix lights, things like that that were like very big public things that people saw. Um, and I think it's a really great documentary, but for some reason it it's just not getting the traction. Um, it it's been released, but not a lot of the VOD platforms have picked it up, and and some of that I think is because um the past like three or four years, a lot of documentaries on this has has come out. There, there's a ton of like Bigfoot documentaries, a ton of like supernatural sort of things. There's even whole uh VOD channels just dedicated to it, and I think that might be part of it. So like an oversaturation I think so, yeah, because it's it's really good, in my opinion. I think it it looks great. I think it there's uh tons of informational, uh interesting uh uh stories that are in there. Um the only other thing I can think of is like with haunted objects, we have an actual host on screen. And with Echoes of the Unknown, we do not. Huh. And and that could also be part of it. I I'm not sure. And that's that's sort of the thing when um you make these projects, you have no idea what the distributor is capable of. You have no idea what the audience's uh appetite is. You're just sort of like shot in the dark. This is what I want to do, this is what I'm gonna present to the world, and you hope it works out.
SPEAKER_08:Yeah, interesting, interesting. And then, you know, where it was funny because you you drew the the the correlation to echoes and haunted objects as kind of being reality-based. Well, and now we can kind of move into more of the current stuff that you're doing. You're you're the the movie, the feature, the space rodent, is your latest project, which which has been creating quite the buzz in the indie film festival circuit. So tell me a little bit about The Space Rodent.
SPEAKER_04:The Space Rodent. So um the the title of the movie originally was called MacD versus the Space Rodent. Um and it was supposed to be, you know, very tongue-in-cheek, like, what the heck does that? What does that mean? Um, and it is a uh in the in the film, the two lead characters, Mac and Dean, sort of form a a space rodent hunting group uh called MACD, using their initials, their names. Um, but um anyway, the distributor thought it's too confusing, so they wanted to change it to Space Rodent. But um so it's a it's a crazy movie um that uh takes place on Halloween about four friends who are uh young adults who just haven't made their way in life yet. They're just sort of kind of figuring things out, they're goofy over the top, they don't know how to you know pay the bills basically at all. You know, even if they're making money, they don't know how to pay the bills, they're they're having fun. And in the middle of Halloween day, uh a uh a meteor hits you know the earth and these little space rodents come out and start attacking people, and you have these two you know third, you know, young 30-something people that are just like can't, you know, wake up on time in the morning and now they're up against these creatures that they have to sort of defend their home against, right? Um, and it's super over the top, it's got some raunchy comedy, it's uh it's it's really a buddy comedy. If you ever seen like those uh old like 80s or early 90s like buddy cop films, it it's like that, but injects like a super yeah, sci-fi sort of like creature in the mix, and it's that's kind of what you got, except for we really wanted to push it to another level. We wanted to um, you know, we didn't want the comedy to just be comedy, you know. We wanted uh we wanted to be visual as well. Yeah, so not like Jim Carrey necessarily slapstick, although we have some of that, but um, we really wanted to try to push the envelope as much as we could in it and um sort of create something in a in a very very specific genre for a very specific audience that isn't for everyone. Right, right. Um, you know, and that's okay because it's not meant to be. It's it's literally meant for certain people that like uh independent micro budget films, um sci-fi horror, and comedy comedy type.
SPEAKER_08:I think I think comedy and horror go so well together.
SPEAKER_06:Oh, absolutely.
SPEAKER_08:I had uh spoken to a horror film maker, I don't know, three years ago, and we were talking about he had a comedy horror film, and I love being scared, so I love pure horror. I also love you know horror comedy. My my podcast partner at the time hates horror, hates to be afraid, and appreciated the comedy because it took away from the scary moments for her. I was like, huh. No, I just like to laugh and be scared at the same time.
SPEAKER_04:You know, fear and comedy really do go hand in hand, they're very similar uh emotions, I think, uh laughter and fear. Um and so the uh Space Runner was my first comedy that I've ever done. So it was really challenging for me to sort of find a balance. And I'm still not 100% sure that I did because it's really hasn't really been released to the world yet. Um, you know, it's in pre-order right now, but um, you know, it it was really challenging just to find the right balance of the tone and make sure that the comedy is hitting and the you know, hopefully the scary parts are hitting. And I think the creatures themselves do a lot of the heavy lifting for the the the scary part. I I don't think it's scary personally, but um, you know, I've had I've had people like at like the premieres and things like that be like, wow, that was a lot scarier than I thought it was. And I'm just like, really? You know, so it's it's good to hear those kinds of things because um sometimes the audience's perception and what they're experiencing is completely different um from yours, especially making the thing, because obviously when you're making it, you know everything that's gonna be in the movie, and you're experiencing it sort of in real time, and it's not in that sort of polished not that the film's polished, but in that sort of like uh audience perspective state, right? With the sound effects, the music, you know, whatever.
SPEAKER_08:Yeah. I I watched I watched the trailer online, and I gotta say, the trailer does not look like this is a micro-budget film whatsoever. And the buddy, the the the buddy part of the story absolutely comes through. Like the the the two characters, like I think I went to school with them.
SPEAKER_06:Exactly what we wanted.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, exactly. Yeah, that's great. I love that. I love to do that.
SPEAKER_08:Yeah, so I'm I'm excited for whenever this does get released um to the world to be able to see it. Um yeah, it looked fantastic. What you know, what funny stories happened on the set, like a mishap or I mean something that was comedic that maybe wasn't supposed to be comedic.
SPEAKER_04:Oh man, there there's so many things on that movie. Uh, you know, my uh because I hadn't this is my first comedy and first comedy horror. Um, I really um I was very loose with the directing, and I allow the actors to sort of go off on tangents of ad-libit lines, right? So we would we would always get what's in the script, but then there'd be a point where it's like, okay, if you guys have something, anything more that you want to add to it, just play, just have some fun. And sometimes the camera would just be rolling for like 10 minutes. Like it could be a scene where there's like one or two lines, right? But we just let the camera roll. And I mean, they could just uh ro Rob Carrera, who wrote the script um and starred as Mac in the movie, and then there was uh David Menard who plays Dean in the movie. Those two together, their chemistry is just it's amazing. They could be superstars if somebody could discover them. I mean, they're just they're really just amazing together. Um, and they could just go off on Ad Libbe. And improv for forever. There's so much in the movie that wasn't in the script that's just from them bouncing off each other. Um that that's one of the main uh I think it it's maybe not uh funny for the audience to like hear that sort of antidote, but for me it's like that's my greatest memory of the project, is because we were all busting up laughing at these two guys, just just going constantly. And it's just you'd forget to call cut and forget to turn off the camera, and they're just going forever. Oh, that's right. And then of course, there's a few times where they're just like, okay, I'm out of steam, cut, cut, cut this, we're done, you know. Um, you know, where they would have to cut themselves because I'm just over here laughing and enjoying what they're doing. Um, but I think like the I think one of the bigger challenges that um is the space drones themselves, like it's obviously a puppet, right, in the movie. There they can be frightening looking. Um, but I did um, you know, part of the design of it is we wired up these uh uh red lights, you know, for the eyes. So the electronics keep breaking. And so it's like every time you go into like, you know, do a scene, like the the lights are like flickering and you know shutting off. And so it's like it's super challenging. Then you gotta take a break and figure out the electronics and fix it and then get back in there and do that sort of stuff. Um and that could be, you know, kind of a headache, but it's also it's it's kind of funny in the middle of the scene because you see the actor sort of reacting to like something that's not supposed to be happening, you know.
SPEAKER_08:My god, the rodent's having a stroke.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, exactly. And that's what it kind of feels like, you know. And like half the time it's like the actors, you know, acting against themselves because they're putting their hand up in the puppet, you know, and kind of holding it as it's attacked, they're attacking themselves.
SPEAKER_06:You know.
SPEAKER_04:Uh so it's hilarious. It's hilarious to watch on on set, and it's like, I don't think they Audience doesn't know that when they're watching the movie. Right.
SPEAKER_08:Right. Yeah, they didn't see the comedy behind the comedy.
SPEAKER_06:Right. Yeah.
SPEAKER_08:So again, it it was a micro budget film. What was the budget? So people after they see the movie and they hear the budget, they're usually like, Yeah, because uh from the trailer alone, I'm like, it doesn't look cheesy, it doesn't look, you know, like it was duct tape together.
SPEAKER_04:Which is funny because we use a lot of duct tape in the movie. Um the so the budget for the movie was 2,000. Oh my god. That's the reaction I get from everybody. Wow. So it's literally what we paid for. Like if you if you didn't have any resources, like I've been doing this for 24, 25 years now. If you didn't have resources and kind of know people, it would be a little harder, right? To bring that together. Uh, what we spent all of the money on was food and props, um, a little bit on wardrobe, but that's that's what we spent the cash on, right?
SPEAKER_08:And so the actors worked for free.
SPEAKER_04:The actors worked for free, they drove to set for free, you know. Everybody that was on the movie worked absolutely for free. So if you don't have those resources, uh you haven't cultivated those sort of relationships, um, which uh, you know, maybe I should take that back because there were a lot of people on this particular movie just met on this movie. Um, and we're gonna go on to do other stuff and and have become friends. But um uh if you didn't if you don't have that sort of like um um film sort of community where you're at, it'll be much harder to do this, but it shouldn't stop.
SPEAKER_08:Right.
SPEAKER_04:Um, I just think it might take a little extra time or a little more effort, um and it might be a slower process. Um, we could have made this movie for$20,000 and it probably would have looked the same. Um, you know, it probably wouldn't have been any different because um paying, and I'm not against paying people to take this right away. Everybody should get paid for their work. Um, but just paying somebody doesn't make the product any better better. Right. Yeah. Yeah, their heart has to be in it. They have to like want to achieve the same goal that you want. Um, and that's sort of been my experience with the the pay thing. It's like everybody deserves a paycheck, and I'm not asking people to work for free if they don't want to. Like they have to like, I want to do this, I want to be a part of this sort of thing. Um, and and we all have to sort of like agree like this is our end goal, this is what we want to do. Um, and that's very important for doing a movie like this. Um, and uh I've had films that I've shot from much, much bigger, you know,$200,000 budgets where you have um crew that you've hired and cast, and they they don't they don't have the same sort of passion for it because they're just there for a paycheck. Um, and that's that's much harder of a movie to make um mentally, right? Um if you don't have your team caring as much as you care about. When we made the space road, and it's like everybody cared, nobody's making money, I'm not making money, they're not making money, but we're like looking at this thing like this is really cool, this is fun, this can go somewhere, we just need to put the effort in. And and that is so much more comfortable and so much more of a better environment than than being on a you know an astronomically larger film, which I mean in the terms of Hollywood,$200,000 is nothing, but um for us that's that's huge, right? Um and working on a film like that where people just don't care, and you're you care, so you're working twice as hard to try to accomplish something because other people are just sort of like, yeah, just here for a check kind of thing. Yeah, uh that makes it very difficult, you know.
SPEAKER_08:And the difference between the folks, you know, on the the$2,000 budget film versus the$200,000 budget film is is is the primary motivation to get the experience, to get the credit, you know, for their resume, to again, hopefully have their work seen, their acting work seen.
SPEAKER_04:Sometimes it can be. Um, you know, I I think everybody's sort of motivation is a little bit different. Um, there's some people that just like for me, for instance, I work on a lot of films for free. Like I do it just because I just love making movies. It is not about the money for me, it's not about the the glory or the status or any of that kind of stuff because you're not really gonna get that making these micro budget films like that. But like uh tomorrow I'm going to shoot uh an overnight scene for somebody that asked me to join them. And um, I'm just happy to be there because I love doing it. And I think that there's uh some people that are that way, they just love making films. I think there are some people that are doing it because they are working their way up in the in the industry, um, you know, in our perspective, that are like happy to be there to build a resume or get the experience or see how something bigger is done that they haven't been a part of yet. Um, you know, because a lot of people they've maybe only worked, you know, two or three days on a set, like making a short or something like that. And doing a feature, although is similar in like small chunks as like a short film, it's a very different sort of long haul kind of thing. Like you got to have the stamina, you gotta have there's so many pieces that have to fit together, people's schedules and whatnot. So they they have to be passionate about what they're doing, or you know, it's gonna fall apart for them.
SPEAKER_08:Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So, for folks, you know, I there are people in my life, and I'm I'm I'm sure there's people I don't even know that uh are are struggling with this, that they've written a great script or they've collaborated with someone to come up with this great story idea, and they're they're starting to sketch it out. And you know, one thing that's gonna prevent them from moving forward is the absence of budget. What advice do you have for folks who are you know at that point?
SPEAKER_04:So this is a huge it doesn't sound like it, but it's a huge question because um it depends on the project for for starters, right? Most writers, and and I think this is a good thing, it's not a negative, but most writers write what comes to mind, right? Um, this is this is the story that I want to tell. If you're gonna make a micro budget movie, you have to look at what resources do I have and can I build a story around. It's a reverse sort of like process, right? So if you're gonna make something tiny, that's the approach you're gonna have to make. If you're gonna just write from the mind and tell a great story that you want to tell, um, and and money is your obstacle, you have to find it somehow. Um, or you have to find people that are just as passionate in that story as you are. The only way to do that um is networking, uh, submitting your script to script competitions, getting out there, yeah, letting the world see what you've done, right? Um, there's so many script competitions, there's so many great ones, be careful because there's a lot of scams too. Um, but and then people that are looking, there's filmmakers out there who are not writers and they're looking for products. So uh again, get on those uh message boards, get on you know, whether it's Facebook or Instagram or whatever, whatever social media is. Um, if if you're in an area that has film groups or networking groups for filmmakers, go to those. Get out of your house and be seen. Um, because once you have this thing that you're passionate about, nobody else is gonna be passionate about it if you can't present it to them and show them and tell them why.
SPEAKER_06:Right.
SPEAKER_04:Why is this amazing? Why should you join this? Right. Um, and that's I think I think inherently the biggest challenge for writers, and I'm I'm super sympathetic to it. Um, particularly, if it's a writer that wants to be a director, well then there's a certain amount of the craft of directing that you need to know. And if you are a director, I urge you to get as many books as you can. Don't go to film school. There's so many uh resources at our disposal, whether it's YouTube or um just people that have become filmmakers that are doing um uh training and and classes and things like that, it's like I've spent so much money just doing like I know what I'm doing, but I never try to stop learning. Right, you know, so even if I like pay a hundred dollars for a filmmaking course that's about micro-budget filmmaking or or Hollywood level filmmaking, if I take one little minute piece of information that resonates with me, that hundred dollars is well spent to me. You know, that that's never stop educating yourself when it comes to film. So if you're a writer and you also want to get this thing made, learn every aspect of the filmmaking process, and you're gonna be able to wear a lot of hats and get your project made because you're educated now. You know what you're kind of doing, even if you haven't done it before. Um, you have you have sort of uh an idea of the process. Relying on somebody else to do it could put that script in a you know development hell. It might never get made, it might get made, who knows? You know, you're relying on somebody else. Um, so I think the biggest you know advice is also advice that I hate. I hate hearing uh people of a certain stature, like in Hollywood, saying, just get out there and make your movie. It's like right, but how? Right? Like, but I know, but how you're right, it's it's terrible advice. Um, so there's a lot that goes along with that educating yourself, networking with people, working on other films. If you see somebody out there that needs help that's looking for free work, get on, yeah. Learn learn as much as you can by being on set, learn every whether it's lighting, the camera, sound, um, learn how to do it all so that way when it's time for you to make your movie, you have all of that knowledge already in place. You know, you you have a good working knowledge of how it goes.
SPEAKER_08:Where it, I mean, I'm sure there's there's millions of places, but are there any can you recommend any safe places for folks who are looking for that kind of exposure and experience to go to to see what's going on in their area?
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, so um it kind of depends on where you're at, right? Logistically. If you're near a metropolitan city, like I'm near San Francisco here, or if you're near Chicago, or you're near New York, or there's there's bound to be tons of resources, right? If you're in a smaller area like in the Midwest or something like that, it might be a little bit harder, but I guarantee you they're there. There are people that uh thrive off of art everywhere, right? You just gotta find them. And now, yeah, how do you find them? Well, right now we're in the golden age of like uh social media, right? So search. Google is your friend, you know, search your area filmmaking groups, uh, network meetup for film, you know, whatever key terms you can think of to search.
SPEAKER_08:Or even start your own and see who comes.
SPEAKER_04:Absolutely, absolutely. And there's a lot of people that do that, but then there's other people that just like don't even think about that. They're just like, well, I just want to find something. But you know, uh, that's a great, great option for people to do. Uh and they will come. It might take a while, but they will come, you know.
SPEAKER_08:Good, good advice. Good advice. Now, you had mentioned earlier you had um done your own distribution company, Resurrection Films. You have also had experience with running film festivals. What is that like? And what did you what what were you able to squeeze from that experience?
SPEAKER_04:So um probably about 15 years ago, um, film festival circuit was a little bit different. You had you had like the top 10 film festivals, and then you had smaller ones, which are usually ran by like a city or something like that, they would have, or or somebody of some kind of stature that's had distribution experience or whatever it might be. But as it became more accessible to sort of start your own thing, um, and the websites like uh Amazon um used to run a company called Without a Box, which was the biggest film festival sort of submission website. Um it's been defunct, they got rid of it, but um, now there's film freeway, which is the biggest one. So um there inherently just became a lot of scams, a lot of film festival scams. And so you could submit to all these like never heard of film festivals and get nothing from it. They get your submission fee and you never hear from them. Same thing as like kind of distributors, right? Uh, if there's a place to have money made, there's gonna be scams, right? Um, so I started seeing that and experiencing I was like, well, I mean, why don't I just start my own and not be a scam?
SPEAKER_07:Right.
SPEAKER_04:Like, how hard can it be to not scam people? Start your own. There you go. Yeah, like be a good person, it's not really that hard. Um, and that was just sort of my my first initial thought of it. And the other thing was is that when I first started my first film festival, there was this taboo amongst film festivals about um if it's not shot on film, we don't want it. If it's on digital, we don't want it. This is back in the days when digital really started kind of being viable, right? I think 28 days later was the first like major picture that was shot on like a Canon XL1, which was like a consumer level video can even the new one he's shooting on an iPhone. Um, but um so there was this taboo amongst film festivals, like you know, it needs to be shot in a film, it needs to be shot within the last year. And if you're shooting on film, you're gonna have like a substantial budget because film's expensive. So the first one that I started was geared towards digital filmmakers. Quality wasn't really a problem. It's just like if you've made a movie, send it to us. We want to see it and we want to put it up on the big screen so we can celebrate you. Like, this is this is effort, it doesn't matter whether it's shot in film or shot on digital. Somebody put effort into making this and telling the story, and that was our goal, and that's really what we wanted to do. Um, the problem with it was during that time is like to have an uh a venue for something like that cost a good amount of money. Um, and so we were relying on submissions, and you know, when you're just starting out, you might have 30 to 60 submissions, but that's not enough to pay for a venue. So we did that for a couple years, like losing money, and it needed to hit a certain point where this was substantial, you know, it could sustain itself. And we never really got there with that. Um, because again, this is sort of like earlier internet social media was sort of early. There wasn't like now everything's advertising to social media, it's a completely different world. Um, it was harder to do that in a cost-effective way. Um and then we sort of reignited that again, but became a little more focused um about five years ago, um, and started uh one that was geared towards like horror, sci-fi, noir, the sort of like genre films. So um, but although a lot changed, venues have not gotten cheaper. So if anything, they've gotten far more expensive. So new danger. Same problem. Yeah, yeah. It's it's there's some there's certain things that got easier to do, but then the one very, very important thing where you're gonna screen it at is the hugest challenge because it's just it's like it's almost like we don't want to you know have you come and have an event here. We'd rather let the theater sit empty on that day, you know, and it it's that's really hard for me to to hear as a as an artist, you know, because it's like, but why? Why can't you just donate like and I get it? It's a it's not it's not even a necessarily a business, uh, you know, nonprofits, most of these like older theaters that we would want to screen are like nonprofits, right? We're not looking to screen at like AMC or something like that. You could run an AMC theater for$500, it's not a big deal. But that's sort of like a false sense of community, I think. It's like your film isn't supposed to be in an AMC, right? Right. Let's find something that's a little more um, you know, like an art house, yeah. An arthouse classic kind of like setting, like maybe 50, 100 chairs, that kind of thing. Um, you know, if if it's available to you. I mean, honestly, it's like screen it wherever you can. I don't care if it's a bar, you know. Um if they've got a screen and they're willing to let you do it, you know. But for us, that's what we were kind of going for, was like more of an arthousey kind of like like thing. So it's it's really rewarding to meet a lot of filmmakers and to see their work and sort of like, what is everybody else doing in the world?
SPEAKER_07:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:I think that's an important thing for filmmakers to not, you know, stay in your own little bubble, right? Um, you know, and get tunnel vision kind of thing. It's nice to see what other people are doing. Um, and that was I think my greatest takeaway of of doing a film festival is is that portion of it. Um and uh just yeah, I mean, just kind of it's almost like making a movie, you know. You you're you're you're bringing something to an audience and you're kind of telling your own story in a way, even though it's not your film. You get to show people a bunch of other films and you hope they enjoy it.
SPEAKER_07:Yeah.
SPEAKER_08:How how has your experience with with being a distribution company as well as your experience with film festivals, has it influenced your filmmaking in any way?
SPEAKER_04:Uh it has actually, unfortunately, and I think that's an unfortunate thing, but also a necessary evil. Um, and I I do try to be conscious of that. I try to do things like right now, I'm I'm playing in this kind of like world of like pushing envelopes in terms of like um gross out scenes or things like things that like I think that people are gonna be like, I'll remember that scene for the rest of my life, kind of thing. Yeah, uh, even if the movie was terrible, I'll remember that scene and I'll tell people about it. Like, I'm kind of after that at the moment, because I'm I'm not trying to compete with million-dollar films, I'm not trying to compete with even a hundred thousand dollar film, right? It it's it's so hard to do that. So you have to sort of like um understand who your audience is gonna be and what you want to do with the film ultimately. And and so for me, it's like seeing like I we just got back from uh Horror Hound, which is a pretty big convenient uh horror convention. Um, they've got a magazine, they've been doing this for years, right? So Space Rodin was in there, we were up for like 10 or 11 awards, and we we won uh best special effects and uh audience choice for coolest creature, awesome, which is awesome. I didn't expect to win anything at all, or even be in that film festival. So when I get there and I'm looking at the quality of the films that we're competing against, it's like yeah, wow, yeah. These look they look so good, but they're not fun. Yeah, so it's like they look fantastic, and this guy spent$200,000 on this movie and shot on film, and it's just like wow, I could have made 20 films for that, 30 films for that. You know what I mean? And this isn't even fun, it looks fantastic, but I'll never watch this again, right? Right, and and I think that that's um a little bit of ego, I think, for a filmmaker to to like really they're they're trying so hard to make a serious film, like and I mean serious, like be an auteur or like somebody that's in hall, you know what I mean? They're they're just trying too hard. Yeah, um, and I'm I I'm sort of past that, you know.
SPEAKER_08:Yeah, kind of like assuming the role without having done the work to be there.
SPEAKER_04:Exactly, yeah. And it again, like the the one film that took the that swept the festival, congratulations to them. I mean, it looks fantastic, but I think it's his first film, and he just happened to have the budget, you know, to shoot on film, have a fantastic DP. But is he a great director? Is like did he make a movie that's like lasting and it's gonna be enduring and people are gonna watch for uh you know 20 years from now? No, I don't think so. And and that was a lot of money, you know. Yeah, another guy there made a short film that's like 20 minutes and spent$140,000 on it. Wow. And I'm just like, this takes place in a room. A room, like where did$140,000 go? Like, I don't know, yeah, you know, and it's like nothing against them, it's not like I'm I'm judging them, it's just in the same way where your reaction to me was$2,000. I'm like$140,000. It's the same reaction. Like, where did it go? And you're like, where did it go? How did you do that? Yeah, it's the same kind of reaction. Like, I look at that and I'm just like, yeah, how did you do that? How did you spend that kind of money? You know, that's a house.
SPEAKER_07:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:I'm like, I don't think I could let myself do that. Like, I really don't.
SPEAKER_08:Have you had any wow moments? Somebody reach out to you to uh say they loved, you know, one of your one of your pieces of work, or somebody you got to work with, or just had a moment that you never expected you you would have had in doing this.
SPEAKER_04:Gosh, uh quite a few, um, you know, kind of thinking about that sort of thing. And it's very, it's kind of humbling, honestly. Like I don't, I don't look at myself as like being an amazing script writer. Like I think the first, well, actually, even going back before that, the first wow moment was a friend of mine who worked for the county out here. They wanted to put together a uh like a um PSA kind of thing, public service announcement kind of video about children watching TV and parents trying to uh give them their activities to do. And so I didn't really think much of it. It was just like a project to do, and we did it, and we ended up winning a tele award. Actually, I I don't know if this is a video, but um there's a you know, I still have it back here. We won a tele award, which is pretty big for TV, right? Um, and and that was just like wow, we did something really like that matters, you know, and they still use that material today, and that was 15, 20 years ago, and they still use it today. So that's amazing to me. Oh wow. Um yeah, but it really is, and then you know, my one of one of my first scripts that I wrote is called um Dreamland, and I put a lot of effort into it, and um, I didn't really, you know, being a it wasn't my first script, it was my first like real effort, I guess you could say, where I tried to seriously like be a writer and like write this this script and wanted it to do something, right? Um, so there's a script comic uh competition called the Nichelle Um Script Awards or something like that. It's from it's uh from Nichelle the um I can't think of her first name, but uh she was the actress on Star Trek. Um and she started a competition and she was very yeah, I can't remember her last name. Yeah, um, but um anyway, it's a very prestigious um script competition, and we ended up placing as a um a semi-finalist, and to me that was just like yeah, that was huge, you know, that was amazing. I I it was it's a bigger movie where it like needs a budget and all that kind of stuff, but um, it was never intended to you know go that far or even get made, or you know, necessarily, it was just something that was really important to me about and and the whole idea is this sort of fantastical story of these what happens to missing children, right? And and developed a story where they go to this place called Dreamland, and um, you know, and it it's this whole sort of mythology, but um, yeah, so that was pretty amazing to to to place in that at all, much less, you know, that high up. Yeah, uh and then I I have had the opportunity to work with some um amazing people. Like I'm I'm such a fanboy, is part of my problem.
SPEAKER_08:I it's like I I would definitely be fan garling.
SPEAKER_04:I mean, that's just sort of like I I I can't I can't make myself not enjoy stuff, right? So when I get to meet somebody that's like an idol of mine, even if nobody else gives a shit who they are. Sorry, I don't know if I'm supposed to go even if nobody cares like who they are, it's like I know who they are. I grew up watching this person, and they're they're so important to me in a certain aspect of my life. It's like so so there's a there's several people that I've I've had the chance to meet, and I don't know if you know who they are or not, but uh Lance Hendrickson um is one of my favorite people in the world. He's a fantastic actor. He's best known as playing Bishop in Aliens. Oh uh Okay Camera's Aliens. Um and uh he he did a TV series um that was sort of it wasn't really a spin-off, but it was Chris Carter's second TV series after the X-Files. It was called Millennium, and so he was in that show, and and because I was a fan of that show, I met some other people after the the show had was canceled, and we ended up doing a documentary on the on the TV show. Um, and that's what our documentary after the millennium is about. And I got to become good friends with Lance Hendrickson. Um, and uh it's just there's that starstruck sort of aspect from yeah, you know, I'm such a fan of like his work and always have been. The only reason I ever watched Millennium because a friend was like, hey, the actor you like is in this show. And I'm like, I'm like, no, he doesn't do TV, you know. And I'm like, whoa, what? And this is before it was popular for movie actors to be in TV shows. Now it's like you see it quite a bit. Right. Uh but he was always a movie actor, even if it was like low budget or high budget, whatever. He's been in, he's been in some, he's worked with all of the greats, you know, Sidney Lume, I mean, uh Spielberg, like he's he's worked with all the great directors, you know. Um, and uh he's in some of my absolute favorite films. Um and so just to meet him, become friends with him, uh that's so cool. Yeah, it really is, you know. Um it's amazing. And I've I've I've worked with uh you know Eric Roberts, um, who's such a fantastic, he's got a bad rap, you know, but he's so it is a picture of him on the website. Oh, I don't know. Maybe yeah. I mean I've definitely I've worked with him on a couple things.
SPEAKER_08:Yeah, I said that really looks like Eric Eric Roberts, but I couldn't tell because he had sunglasses on.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, yeah. Uh yeah, he's he's such a funny, uh, down-to-earth guy, you know. Um, I and and the thing about Eric is he is so talented when he wants to be. You know, that's the thing with them. If he if he doesn't care about it, he's gonna kind of whatever, it's the paycheck, whatever. But when he wants to act, he is he is so good. Um, and I don't think a lot of people are gonna see that today. Right. Um, but he's he's really he's really amazing. He's like a real deal kind of like actor. Um Lance is the type of person where he's he's got a gravitas, he can just walk into a role and and he just elevates the project, right? Um just being him. Eric is a guy that like if he puts his effort into it and figures out what he's doing, he's like you're glued to like like just art. Yeah, you know, yeah, it's it's a different thing. Um, and they're both amazing, but yeah, those are I think those are the two that really were just sort of like this is cool, yeah. Yeah, this is cool.
SPEAKER_08:Oh, it sounds it. It sounds it. Where do you see your filmmaking career going from here? We uh what what stories I know you've got you've got Space Rodent getting ready for release, you've got the remake of the millennium before the millennium.
SPEAKER_04:Uh after after the millennium, it's a re-release. It was in distribution previously, but we have a new distributor now, and it's gonna be a um much bigger version of it. It's gonna, it's got almost an hour of additional footage in it. So I think I think people that have already purchased the movie, you're gonna want this version, honestly.
SPEAKER_08:Awesome. And then um where do you what's next for you? What kind of stories are you excited to tell?
SPEAKER_04:Yeah. You know, um, it used to be uh I used to like have that thing. I think everybody does as a filmmaker, like I gotta get to Hollywood, I gotta make my name, you know, kind of thing. And I never I never really wanted that. Like I'm I'm huge fans of like people like Lloyd Kaufman with trauma. Um and uh you know James Gunn came from trauma. Uh they just did a remake of uh Toxic Avenger. Like it's like, really? How does that how does that happen? Um, but I mean I'm fans of that, I'm full I'm fans of uh Charles Band with Full Moon Entertainment. Like I I love those sort of like uh 80s, 90s like Like straight to video horror sort of things and I'm happy playing there. I really am. Like I have no desire of like trying to make it in Hollywood, so to speak. It's just not, it's just not something that I um ever really necessarily wanted for me. Like if it happens, cool, like we'll navigate that, but but it's not like I'm doing everything that I can to make it in Hollywood, you know. Right.
SPEAKER_08:Um final question. If you could cast any creature, real, mythical, or completely made up in your next horror film, what would it be and why?
SPEAKER_04:So um I'll just talk about Lance Henderson again. This is one of one of my favorite films, is a film called Pumpkin Head.
SPEAKER_07:Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_04:I don't know if I've seen it, but I love it. Years ago. I love Pumpkin Head. Yeah. It it you know, it might feel a little dated today because it's made in the 80s and has a lot of 80s aesthetics, but this is Stan Winston's first directorial film. I think his only film that he directed. And he designed the creature of Pumpkin Head, and I think Pumpkin Head is the coolest creature I've ever seen. Uh I just I love the design. I think it's a beautiful piece of work. Um, if I could if I could remake Pumpkin Head or do something with that creature, I would love to. That would be my heart's desire. Um, of course, there's a lot of other little ones too, like a critters movie or a trimmer's movie or something like that. Because I love creature features, but Pumpkin Head is my uh number one. I just I think it's just a beautiful, haunting story, and uh what a great creature it is.
SPEAKER_08:So cool, so cool. Jason, what can I help promote for you? If anybody wants to check out your work, um, where can I send them?
SPEAKER_04:So I think the easiest place is resurrectionfilms.net um or deadenfilms.org. Those are the two main websites. Um, Dead End Films is for more of our genre stuff, and then uh Resurrection Films is kind of our uh, I don't know, parent company, you could say. Um, usually that's the bigger budgeted things, and Dead End Films is plays in the uh the micro-budget um films. Perfect. But uh Space Rodent right now is in pre-order. That's the one we're really trying to push. And after the millennium, the re-release of our documentary. Um, if you were a fan of the X-Files, if you're a fan of Lance Hendrickson, Chris Carter, uh Frank Spotnitz, you know, um, you know, all of these guys have gone on to do uh amazing television, the people like Homeland or um, I mean, some Man in the High Castle. There's so many great shows that um these people have produced, and and we got to sit down and talk with them about Millennium that came out in 1996 and still has a massive fan base for people that wish the show would come back. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_08:Great. Great. Well, Jason, I will make sure those links are in the show notes. Um, so anybody that's interested can can check you out. And um, I want to thank you for all your time today. This has been great. I love I love your passion. I love talking to people who really enjoy what they do and have become lifelong long learners of whatever craft it is. It to me, it doesn't matter. If somebody's passionate about it and somebody continues to learn and they want to share freely about it and entertain my questions, I'm all in. So thank you so much for your time.
SPEAKER_04:Oh, you're so welcome. Thank you for having me. It's been a such a fun conversation. Thank you so much.
SPEAKER_08:Thank you. Such a fun conversation with Jason. He is so knowledgeable about the industry. He really has become a student of the industry, albeit a lot of it was trial by error. Um, but he really has dedicated himself to understanding the business side of something he is so passionate about on the creative side. So um less than anybody that is is getting involved with maybe a creative endeavor, but is looking to monetize in some way that there's always a business side. And you will serve your best interest by becoming a student of that business side and learning the ins and outs. So again, loved having a conversation with him. Um, jump down to the show notes for links to his website so you can take a look at his work um and get a heads up on when his next big project is being released. Um, Space Rodent, I believe he said it was in pre-production or not pre-production, pre-order. And you're able to pre-order through his website. So check that out. And um until not next week, but the week after, um, be good, behave, and uh I will see you all in two weeks.
