Ep. 46 - The Dreamers, Doers, And The Disney Way Conversation with Dr. Jeffrey Barnes

What if a theme park could change the way you lead your life? We sit down with Dr. Jeffrey Barnes—Dr. Disneyland—to explore how Walt Disney transformed setbacks into a story-driven blueprint for vision, risk, and relentless execution. From a disappointing first visit to a deep dive into Walt’s life, Jeffrey traces the moment he realized Disneyland isn’t just rides—it’s a living narrative that invites each of us to become the hero of our own story.

We walk through the four C’s Walt championed—confidence, consistency, curiosity, courage—and how they show up in real decisions: betting on synchronized sound in Steamboat Willie, greenlighting Snow White during the Great Depression, and building a park no one believed in. Jeffrey breaks down why leaders need vision, not just management, and shares how Roy Disney’s caution and Walt’s boldness collided to create something bigger than either brother could do alone. You’ll hear how Fantasyland’s design targets pure emotions—fear, wonder, humor—to shape choices, and how Main Street USA blends memory and momentum to set a powerful opening scene.

Expect practical takeaways. Jeffrey reveals the habit strategy that helped him finish his book during a brain tumor battle, the tiny detail Walt personally fixed with a paintbrush to uphold standards, and a snack-sized innovation that went global: Doritos, born from leftover tortillas at a Disneyland restaurant. We also tackle Epcot’s original city vision, what changed after Walt’s death, and how the parks still reflect America’s evolving culture while keeping his spirit alive.

If you’re craving a nudge to start, this is your 20-foot headlight and your next gas station. Hit play, then tell us the small step you’ll take today toward your bigger dream. Subscribe, share with a fellow Disney lover or leader, and leave a review so more curious listeners can find the show.

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Music Credit:  True Living by Patrick Moore

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Transcript

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Passion, Creativity, And Joy

SPEAKER_07 0:10

Everyday people following their passions.

SPEAKER_00 0:13

That's probably like like one of the highlights of my life so far. Just being able to be creative like that. Something I always want.

SPEAKER_04 0:22

And then I decided to get another hive, and that turned into a lot of hives.

SPEAKER_03 0:28

As long as I can do that, I want to be a good citizen. Help people out.

SPEAKER_07 0:33

Putting themselves out there, taking chances, and navigating challenges along the way.

SPEAKER_06 0:40

I I absolutely identified with having stage ride because, you know, anytime I went on stage, I just felt like I was having a hot attack.

SPEAKER_01 0:47

Very first laugh, very first practice session, I crashed, turned the car upside down, made a spectacle of myself, and I got back on that horse and started riding again.

SPEAKER_07 0:56

As they pursue what makes them happy and brings them joy.

SPEAKER_02 1:02

As long as people are having a good time and I have the opportunity to put smiles on people's faces, I I love what I do.

SPEAKER_04 1:08

I have done things that I never thought I could do. To have somebody tell me how real it looks and how, you know, from their actual memory, because that's telling me I've captured what I was trying to get.

Welcome And Disney Focus

SPEAKER_07 1:24

Welcome to a sorted conversation. I'm your host, Helen. We are back at it this week, and I am talking all things Disney because I have the opportunity to chat with one of the foremost experts on Walt Disney and the Disney dynasty. From motivation and leadership lessons demonstrated by Walt Disney to how this week's guest has researched, applied, and continues to share how we can all become better dreamers and doers. And there's a bonus piece, a little factoid of how Doritos were invented. And yes, Disney was involved. So take a listen to this week's episode, and I'll see you on the other side.

Meet Dr. Disneyland

SPEAKER_07 2:17

Today's guest is someone who brings imagination to life, both in the classroom and beyond. He's a best-selling author, storyteller, leadership expert, and one of the foremost authorities on the spirit and legacy of Disneyland. He's known around the world as Dr. Disneyland because he has spent years studying the park's history, design, and philosophy, uncovering timeless lessons about creativity, leadership, customer experience, and the magic that happens when bold ideas meet relentless curiosity. It is my absolute pleasure to welcome to Astoric Conversations Dr. Jeffrey Barnes. Hi, Dr. Jeffrey.

SPEAKER_03 3:01

Well, hello. And oh my gosh, I'm so excited to be not just with you today, but of course, your wonderful audience. How are you?

SPEAKER_07 3:10

I am well. I am well. Thank you so much for taking the time. Absolutely. The fascination with Disney and Walt Disney, where did it start? How did it start for you?

SPEAKER_03 3:22

Great question.

First Disney Memories And Disappointment

SPEAKER_03 3:23

And it's not a one-shot answer. So, you know, as a kid growing up in the panhandle of Florida, we went to Walt Disney World three years after it opened. I was 10 years old. And I can remember thinking, standing on Main Street, that if there were anything such as heaven on this side of living, that had to be it. And so I just, you know, instantly became the kid. If we were going back for another vacation, or if there was like a school trip or a scouting trip, what I tended to be like the most excited about going to Walt Disney World. And this is before Epcot and you know Animal Kingdom and Hollywood studies. It was like it was just like, it was just like, wow, like this is like amazing, and this is perfect, and this is the way the world should be. My parents had gone to Disneyland here in Southern California back in 1960, a few years before I was born, and they talked about that you know trip in you know mystical sorts of ways. And so when I moved to California and finally made my way down to Los Angeles, because when I moved to California, I was up in Northern California. Like I couldn't wait to get to Disneyland because this is the one my parents had gone to, and you know, this was the original, and this was the only one Walt had ever actually walked in. And I was so disappointed. I I was so devastated. And a lot of it was you know the expectations of my childhood. A good bit of it had to do with just the fact that I was grossly unprepared. I I walked in at 11 o'clock on a Sunday in August, and so of course it was crowded, and of course it was hot, and I'd seen all of the commercials for the newest, latest, greatest attraction, which was Star Tours in Tomorrowland. And so I couldn't wait to get to Star Tours fast enough. And I asked a cast member, hey, where is Star Tours? Because they didn't have it at Magic Kingdom, this was new. And they were like, Well, you're in the right place for the ride, wrong place for the line. And we got redirected to the end of Main Street, waited three hours before we could experience our first Disneyland attraction. And of course, by the time we're off the ride, it's even hotter, it's even more crowded. I left that night hating everything about Disneyland. And if you had told me then that I'd be doing what I'm doing now, I would have said you're absolutely nuts. But and I I use that word a lot because people need to realize you know, the past doesn't drive your story, the wake doesn't drive the boat, right? You can always put a butt and move forward in a new and different and better direction. I stayed in California long enough to realize this park really means something to locals in a way that I didn't experience as a

Discovering Walt Through Story

SPEAKER_03 6:25

resident of Florida. And I was super curious. You know, Walt once was asked, what does it take to be successful? And he said it comes down to four C's, uh confidence, uh consistency, curiosity, and courage. And out of those four, I I got you know a double or triple dose of curiosity. And so I just had to know well, what is it about Disneyland that everyone else seems to love and and I hate and I had this you know awful experience. So I started doing research. That's when I discovered Walt Disney wasn't born successful, Walt Disney had a very difficult and impoverished childhood, Walt Disney had a difficult relationship with his dad. Walt Disney had more failures than successes. Walt Disney, when he was building his dream for Disneyland at the ripe old age of 53, did not have a friend in a wor in the world. Nobody believed in it, to include his own wife and his own brother. And I think most importantly, he built the park for the purpose of telling stories. You see, Walt didn't want to be remembered for Mickey Mouse, Snow White, or even Disneyland, Walt wanted to be remembered as a storyteller. And when Disneyland opened in 1955, there were 2,000 amusement parks across the country. None of them told stories. They were all parks that engaged us physically, but nothing that sparked our imaginations or challenged us mentally. And so Walt wanted to do something completely new and completely different. Well, I was in grad school writing a doctoral dissertation on narrative or story criticism. I love story. And so Walt's desire to be remembered as a storyteller, but then build a park that told stories. Oh my god, I fell in love. I just fell in love with that idea. And so three years after my first trip, I returned seeing it through the lens of A, Walt's story, and then B, his desire to tell stories. And it it was it was life-changing. Instantly became an obsession for me. I I can remember coming home in June of 91 and telling people, I'm going to write a Disneyland book one day. And this is the complete opposite of I hate this place and I'm never going back. I just don't get it.

SPEAKER_07 8:57

So it really was that story connection for you that pulled it all together.

SPEAKER_03 9:01

Right. And and and the real piece, we all love story.

Conflict Makes Great Stories

SPEAKER_03 9:06

Uh story's right, we read books, it's why we go to the movies. It's a story that brings us back to the Disney parks over and over and over again. As human beings, we are wired for story. The challenge is most of us are chasing the wrong part of the story. We're looking for the happily ever after ending. That's not what makes a great story. Every great story requires conflict. And Walt's story was filled with conflict. We see it in his childhood. We see it with the bankruptcy. We see it with the loss of his first successful character. We see it when he's doing Snow White, the world's first full-length animated feature film. We see it again with Disneyland. It's the conflict that makes the story interesting. And if you've got any listeners right now who are bored with their life, it's because they're choosing not to do hard and difficult things.

SPEAKER_07 10:02

Yeah, it's funny because you know, I can think back in my like after graduating from college and being in the workforce for a couple years, and I can remember saying, I need a bone rattling change. I need something to shake things up because I'm bored, I'm getting too complacent, and I'm not being challenged. And I I can I can look at maybe once every 10 years, I have something like that. Now, this past year, completely different story. I've had enough bone rattling change to last a lifetime.

SPEAKER_03 10:32

But yeah, and so what typically happens is we accept comfort, we accept easy, we accept boredom, and then something outside of our control happens that forces us to change and forces us to alter the story, right? And so my passion is to get people to choose the better story rather than wait and have it forced upon them.

SPEAKER_07 11:02

Wow. So at what point during your research, when you when you declared I'm writing a Disneyland book someday, at what point during your research did people start calling you Dr. Disneyland? How did that come about?

SPEAKER_03 11:17

So it wasn't instant because A, I'm living up in Northern California, so I'm not able to go to the park on any sort of regular basis. And then two, it's great to have this wonderful idea. You know, Walt dreamed of building a place where parents and children could have fun together for 20 plus years. But that didn't mean he like instantly started doing it the second the idea came to him. I didn't know how to write a book. I didn't know how to publish a book, I didn't know how to market or sell a book. It was a nice thought. And every now and again, you know, I would do more reading and do more research, and you know, I'd write a sentence here and you know, try to scribble out a paragraph there. But it it wasn't anything that, you know, was like this is going to happen no matter what, until A, I moved to Southern California and realized in working with struggling students. I had a 22-year career in higher education. And in Southern

From Course Idea To Brain Surgery

SPEAKER_03 12:20

California, there's only two things that we can all agree with, because everyone's from everywhere else, right? We all love In N Out Burger, and we all go to Disneyland. And I was working with students who had the ability to be successful in college, but they were just choosing not to go to class. They were choosing not to do the work, they were choosing not to take the exams. And so I'm struggling to like find a way to teach them success lessons in a way that they're actually going to listen. And I realized that every lesson I needed to teach these students were right there at Disneyland and right there in Walt's life and in Walt's story. And so I pitched this idea of teaching a college course on the history of Disneyland, which yes, was going to be great for the students. If I'm a hundred percent honest, it was also a way for me to write the book without having to write the book because I had been teaching I don't know how many different courses for two decades at this point. I knew I didn't know how to write a book, but I knew how to teach another college course. And so teaching the college course was a way of scratching that itch without getting more uncomfortable than I was like really ready to do.

SPEAKER_07 13:40

It's a fantastic book. I've listened to it.

SPEAKER_03 13:42

Thank you.

SPEAKER_07 13:43

I I don't think you narrate it. You didn't narrate it, did you?

SPEAKER_03 13:47

So I love the narrator, individual by the name of Al Kessel, who's a huge Disney fan, read it and reached out to me and said, I love your book. I'd be honored to do the narration. And he is a full-time, you know, audible narrator. And as I approached this project, my thinking was I wanted it to be at the highest quality possible because that was the mindset Walt had when he was building Disneyland, right? I didn't want to just record my own book using my iPhone in my like I wanted it to be, you know, at the highest quality possible. And so I was more than happy to outsource that. And yeah, people people love the work that Al did.

SPEAKER_07 14:32

Yeah, I there's so much great information. I mean, you had to write it to begin with. There's so much great information in there, and all the little anecdotes and the stories and the little passport stamps at the end of each chapter. I I mean they're there really are just pulling the lessons out. I could definitely say I'm a corporate trainer. Um, so I could definitely see the key takeaways in those in those passport stamps. It is a phenomenal book.

SPEAKER_03 15:02

Well, thank you. And that's, you know, as you know from having listened to the book, uh I taught the college course, and in the middle of teaching that after the first lecture, I get diagnosed with a life-threatening brain tumor. And they wanted to operate immediately. Uh, recovery was two months, which would have canceled the course. And I refused because the course was never about the amusement park. It was really about challenging the students to recognize that in order to be successful, you've got to embrace conflict, you've got to overcome obstacles, you've got to do hard things. And so that summer was an opportunity for me to not just teach the course, but to live the course. And on the other side of the surgery, spoiler alert, I lived. On the other side of the surgery, I'm like, it was great to teach the class, but if that had been it, I would have been disappointed that I never wrote the book.

SPEAKER_05 16:01

Right.

SPEAKER_03 16:02

And so that's how the book actually happened. It took conflict, it took me getting sick. And what was 20 years of, oh, I don't know how, woe is me, no one will publish it, no one will buy it. Start to finish 142 days.

SPEAKER_07 16:22

Wow. So sometimes just shutting

Vision Versus Management

SPEAKER_07 16:24

up, rolling up your sleeves and getting it done.

SPEAKER_03 16:27

But again, it's on the other side of conflict, right? True, yep. So I guarantee you, everybody listening to us today have had something, probably multiple something, happen to them that they wish had not happened. Right. Right?

SPEAKER_07 16:43

Right.

SPEAKER_03 16:44

It's not about what happened, it's how you respond to what happens. And so I'm glad I got sick. I'm grateful that I got a brain tumor because it forced me to do what I had said I had been wanting to do for two decades, only now I got over myself, sat down and did the work. And now it's the only work that I do.

SPEAKER_07 17:07

Yeah, yeah. That that is that is fantastic. And yes, it does take a bone rattling change sometimes just to like shake the dust out and and get going.

SPEAKER_04 17:19

Correct.

SPEAKER_07 17:20

So through your research and in writing the book and learning about Walt Disney, what leadership principle from Walt do you believe is the most needed?

SPEAKER_03 17:30

Vision.

SPEAKER_07 17:31

Vision?

SPEAKER_03 17:32

Absolutely. I I I work a lot with leaders. I still go back to my former university and spend time in the summer mentoring uh PhD leadership students. The number one trait of a leader, not a manager, because those are very, very different, and we get them mixed up too often.

SPEAKER_05 17:51

Yep.

SPEAKER_03 17:52

But the number one trait of a leader is having the ability to see where we need to go, what we need to do, a future that doesn't yet exist. And then becoming so clear and so passionate about that vision that you create rabid followers who are willing to go with you into that unknown future. Yeah, I'm not sure. So again, like and so Walt's vision for animation, his vision for synchronizing sound in Steamboat Willie, his vision for a full-length animated feature film, his vision for the amusement park industry and turning them into parks that tell stories. You know, people loved that so much that they were willing to follow him to the ends of the earth to help make that happen.

SPEAKER_07 18:52

Right. Right. And I and some of the other things I had read and learned about Walt Disney myself, it was his his his leadership, and that yeah, he was the one holding the flashlight, but he was staring into the abyss, and everybody else was right behind him.

SPEAKER_03 19:10

Correct. Well, and and sometimes sometimes he held the flashlight alone, and people eventually came alongside him when they realized that despite the fact that no one else believed, Walt believed and was willing to move forward into that abyss with the flashlight alone.

SPEAKER_07 19:36

What what was something that he he led the charge by himself first before our folks joined him?

SPEAKER_03 19:45

So uh let me back up a little bit.

Walt And Roy: Tension And Trust

SPEAKER_03 19:47

Walt's first studio was Lafagram Studio in Kansas City, Missouri. And he he did a couple of different projects there, but by and large, he was creating animation advertisements for. For a local dentist. Studio lasted 18 months. And after only a year and a half, he it's it's bankrupt, and Walt Disney is homeless. And his older brother Roy, who is in Los Angeles recovering from tuberculosis post-World War I, encourages him to come out to California. And so Walt boards a train in Kansas City with $40, a single suitcase, and a one-way ticket. And then together he joins forces with his older brother Roy, and they form the Disney Brothers Studio that today is the largest entertainment company anywhere in the world. I tell people all the time the difference between the first studio that went bankrupt in 18 months and the second studio that is the world's largest entertainment company today, the difference between the two is not Walt. The difference is Roy. If Walt had had his way, he would have driven the second studio into bankruptcy and off the financial and physical cliff all over again. Now, having said all of that, if it weren't for Walt, Roy would have spent the rest of his life selling vacuum cleaners door to door here in Southern California. They needed each other. Right. And because they came at business from two very different perspectives, Walt's a visionary and creative leader. Roy is a manager. They clashed a lot. Roy didn't necessarily think that they needed to spend all of the money that Walt was willing to spend to synchronize the sound for Steamboat Willie. Steamboat Willie was not the first Mickey Mouse cartoon. There were two prior cartoons that same year, but Steamboat Willie only got distribution because of the uniqueness of the synchronized sound. When they go to do Snow White, it's in the middle of the Great Depression. Nobody has any money, except for Walt, because of the popularity of the Mickey Mouse short cartoons. Walt realizes, however, if he doesn't own the feature film, then eventually the short cartoons are going to go away. When's the last time you saw a cartoon before a full-length anime before a full-length feature film? It's been a while, right? Yeah, yeah. Walt was right. Well, that film was going to cost millions upon millions of dollars. And at one point, as they're getting deeper and deeper into debt, Walt gets an anonymous note from someone in the studio that says stick to shorts, meaning stick to the shorter cartoons, Walt. And years later, he would come to find out it was his older brother Roy.

SPEAKER_07 22:48

Oh, wow.

SPEAKER_03 22:49

And when he was building Disneyland, Roy and Lily wanted nothing to do with it. And Roy even called up the banks and said, if my brother comes down there to talk to you about that damn amusement park, I need to know about it. But there's that word again. The first person to spend the first dollar, that's all it costs to get into Disneyland back in 1955. The first person to spend the first dollar to purchase the first ticket into the park was Walt's older brother Roy.

SPEAKER_07 23:20

What a great story.

SPEAKER_03 23:22

So he came around, right? Yeah. Because Walt did not give up. So you don't have to convince people that you're right. You just have to convince people that you believe that you're right.

SPEAKER_07 23:37

That's a great lesson. I was going to ask you, since Disneyland was created at a point in time where it wasn't supposed to be successful.

SPEAKER_03 23:45

Right.

SPEAKER_07 23:46

What what can leaders or and and even somebody that is just looking for better self-leadership of themselves? What can folks learn from that boldness and resilience that that Walt had?

SPEAKER_03 24:00

The courage to do new and different things. And to recognize that, you know, the marketplace isn't looking for another version of whatever. Right? You're only going to genuinely move the needle if you take risks and create things that do not currently exist. And that's scary. Yes. Right? But

Design For Story And Emotion

SPEAKER_03 24:30

but that's true leadership. I mean, look at Henry Ford. You know, Henry Ford was famous for saying if I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said a faster horse. He didn't care what the people wanted. He knew what they needed and gave it to them. Walt was the exact same way. We didn't know we needed Mickey Mouse or synchronized sound or full-length animated feature film or park that told stories. He gave it to us anyway and took on all of the risk as a result.

SPEAKER_07 25:04

If you had to choose one habit or one mindset that Walt had that separated him from his contemporaries at that point in time, what do you think it is?

SPEAKER_03 25:17

Well, I'll I'll take it a step further. It's not so much that it separated him from his contemporaries as much as it separates him from any and everybody. So I I believe that we are all closer to Walt Disney than we realize. So if you weren't born successful, you're like Walt Disney. If you had a challenging childhood, you're like Walt Disney. If you have a difficult relationship with one of your parents, you're like Walt Disney. If you've ever failed, you're like Walt Disney. Walt, however, never gave up. His wife Lily once said, I've never seen Walt beaten at anything. Isn't that an amazing compliment? Yeah. Like can you imagine your partner saying, Yeah, boy, you know, he or she took some licks and you know, things got tough, but wow, I I just never saw them beaten at anything. And then Walt was willing to take action over and over and over again. Into the abyss, I love that word. And and sometimes not even with a flashlight. So, you know, the idea for Disneyland came when Walt was sitting on a park bench at Griffith Park in downtown Los Angeles, and his two young daughters are riding the merry-gound, and he's sitting on this bench eating peanuts and board, and he starts to wonder why isn't there a place where parents and children could have fun together? Well, we all have ideas. Walt got up off the bench and took action on the idea. And so relentless belief in yourself and the courage to get up off of your bench and take action regardless.

SPEAKER_07 27:02

Most people see Disneyland as an entertainment destination. What's something they often miss about its deeper design and the philosophy that's kind of built into the park?

SPEAKER_03 27:15

Well, it is entertaining, and and Walt loved being an entertainer. Remember, however, that he built the park for the purpose of telling stories because, again, he wanted to be remembered as a storyteller. And

Main Street USA: Memory And Meaning

SPEAKER_03 27:33

the design of the park is actually challenging you to, when you leave, to start living your own version of your own great story. And so, you know, and an example of that is in the in the Fantasyland Dark Rides. These are the original three story-based attractions in Fantasyland, Snow White Scary Adventures, Peter Pan's Flight, Mr. Toad's Wild Ride. All of those stories were created not to retell the entire story. They're not nearly long enough. Right. Instead to connect to the emotion that's most apparent in the story. So Snow White Scary Adventure is Fear and Danger, Peter Pan's Flight, Awe and Wonder, Mr. Toad's Wild Ride is humor and comedy. And so it's a reminder that we connect with people emotionally. And more often than not, we make decisions based on guess what? Emotion. But then, secondly, Walt didn't put the heroes, he didn't put the characters, he didn't put the lead heroes into those attractions. Because his expectation was we're not passive spectators in the story, we are active participants. You're not going to look be on the lookout for Snow White. You get to be Snow White. Stop looking for Peter Pan. You get to be Peter Pan. And this was very, very confusing to guests. Because again, when we go to the park, we want to we want to see these characters, we want to see these leads, we want to see these heroes. Not realizing that if you want to live a great story, stop looking for the hero, step up and be the hero.

SPEAKER_07 29:19

Oh, that's awesome. That's great. Is is there a part of the park that you feel best captures Walt's original vision?

SPEAKER_03 29:33

Main Street USA.

SPEAKER_07 29:35

Main Street, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 29:37

Yeah. It's timeless, even though it is set in the era of turn of the century, and based on his memories from Marceline, Missouri, which were the only positive memories that Walt had from his childhood. Uh Walt was born in Chicago, Illinois in 1901. The family moved to Marceline when he was four. Walt loved that farm. He loved that town. Unfortunately, the farm failed, and they moved away to Kansas City when Walt was nine and it and it broke his heart. And in order to reclaim the positive part of his childhood, Walt recreated the memories of Marceline vis-a-vis Main Street USA. In doing so, not only does he take us back to a timeless error, but he's also being vulnerable. Vulnerability means to lean into the wound. Walt is leaning into the wound of his childhood. He's also breaking every amusement park norm of the day. You don't have a single entrance in, you don't have a single exit out. Well, Walt understood the importance of the opening scene and the closing shot. And so he wanted to control it. Now, once you get to the Central Plaza, once you're in front of the castle, you've got all of these different lands, all of these different stories that you can head off into. But at the very beginning, he's going to control that opening scene. He's going to make sure he leaves that lasting first impression. And Main Street to this day serves that very purpose. We remember our first time at a Disney Castle Park, if for no other reason we remember our first time on Main Street USA.

SPEAKER_05 31:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 31:38

And it's also the perfect example of Walt having one foot in the past and another foot into the future.

SPEAKER_07 31:47

Because that leads to all the other worlds.

SPEAKER_03 31:49

Correct.

SPEAKER_07 31:50

Wow.

The Doritos Origin Story

SPEAKER_07 31:51

Well, you know, in in all of the you do keynote speaking, you you teach your your your course. What detail or what story about Disneyland surprises people the most when you share it?

SPEAKER_03 32:08

That's an easy one. And it's probably my favorite fun fact as well. So when Walt was when Walt was building the park, the original budget was three and a half to four million dollars. He managed to spend well over 17 million by the time he opened the gates. Because again, Walt's going to bankrupt the studio over and over and over again, which is why Roy is constantly trying to rein him in.

SPEAKER_07 32:31

How is Roy's health at this point?

SPEAKER_03 32:34

He's pretty messed up. Well, despite spending $17 million, Walt still doesn't have the money to run the restaurants, to run the shops, or even the Disneyland Hotel. All of that is leased out to third-party vendors. Well, in Frontierland, which is the largest land in the park when it opens in 1955, there is a Mexican restaurant sponsored by Frito Lay, Casa de Fritos. Well, over time, a cast member realized that every single night they would have excess tortillas and dump them in the garbage. And he had this brilliant idea of, well, rather than throwing these excess tortillas away, what if we cut them up, deep-fried them, put seasoning on them, tried to sell them as a snack the next day? And it worked. And over time became the most popular snack in Disneyland, so much so that in 1966, Fritole took its popular Disneyland snack nationwide, and today we know them as Doritos.

SPEAKER_07 33:41

Wow. I had no idea that was their origin story.

SPEAKER_03 33:45

Doritos were invented at Disneyland.

SPEAKER_07 33:49

That is pretty cool. I'm surprised at that.

SPEAKER_03 33:53

Yeah. And if you go back and look at the branding for Doritos and the original Disneyland sign that used to stand out on Harbor Boulevard in Anaheim, they're almost identical.

SPEAKER_07 34:05

That's blowing my mind right now.

Living Your Story With Courage

SPEAKER_07 34:10

How has studying Walt and Disneyland changed the way you approach your own life decisions and choices and challenges?

SPEAKER_03 34:23

Well, I I always loved story, and now I see life as one continuous story. And you know, I try to make sure that I am challenging myself, that I'm not running away from conflict, that I am, you know, connecting with emotion and not, you know, just checking boxes.

SPEAKER_07 34:48

Right.

SPEAKER_03 34:49

And and that's not always easy. But again, you know, if if you're going to love story and you know tell the Walt and the Disneyland story, you know, you have to recognize that you have a responsibility for, okay, well, what does your story look like? Right. And are you living up to you know this promise of you know being the hero in your own great story? Because the temptation is, you know, to get comfortable and you know, to rest on your laurels and you know, to do what you've always done. And Walt Walt hated repeating himself. He he never was, you know, like it was always what's next, what's next, what next? Right. And I would like to think that you know, I'm doing the same thing.

SPEAKER_07 35:33

Oh, that's great. What attraction, land, or moment in the park for you has the most meaning?

SPEAKER_03 35:41

Space Mountain.

SPEAKER_07 35:43

Space Mountain. Well, what's the story there?

SPEAKER_03 35:48

So it's not necessarily what I would say is Disney's Disneyland's best attraction. You know, if if I were to like bring someone who's never been and put them on an attraction to try and blow them away and say, you know, this is what they do, and the park is filled with these kinds of experiences, I'd probably put them on the Indiana Jones adventure. But for me, I know that I'm home at Disneyland when

Start Small And Stay Consistent

SPEAKER_03 36:22

I am on Space Mountain. And I don't know why, but there's just something about that attraction and the way that I feel when I'm on it that is incredibly comforting. And you know, I spent two years after my brain surgery not allowed to ride anything that shook me, spun me, jerked me around, put any kind of G forces on me. And that was easily the attraction I missed the most. And the first attraction I rode after my two-year restriction was lifted. And I had, because of the book, people from all over the world celebrating me having the chance to finally ride Space Mountain again after that two-year hiatus.

SPEAKER_07 37:11

Oh, that's wild. That's fantastic. I remember my first ride on Space Mountain. I have never been to Disneyland, I have only been to Disney World. And I think I was about eight years old my first ride on Space Mountain, and it was just a frightening blur to me. I was I was just back to Disney World at the end of 2023. I went with my sister and her husband and my nephew, and Space Mountain was the first ride we went on.

SPEAKER_03 37:46

And interesting.

SPEAKER_07 37:47

I was I I love it too. I I wouldn't say comfort is something I felt while I was on it.

SPEAKER_03 37:54

I think I aged 10 years, but so they're very different experiences, Florida and California. So the one in Florida has two tracks, is a lot bumpier and a lot jerkier. And the one in California is a single track and is faster and smoother. Oh. So, and and it's funny you bring that up. Another reason why it's my favorite attraction is arguing over which park has the better version, Magic Kingdom in Florida or Disneyland here in California, is easily the number one marital argument between my wife and me. She loves the version in Florida. And I tell her all the time, it's okay, you can be wrong.

SPEAKER_07 38:43

That's funny. That's funny. Well, I kind of shifting gears a little bit, being, you know, the hero in your own story. What do you say to somebody who feels their big idea is just too risky or too impossible? And do you draw on a specific lesson from Walt to help reinforce that?

SPEAKER_03 39:01

Yes. I I would say start small. You you're your your brain is trying to keep you exactly where you are because that's safe, that's comfortable, that's knowable. And so you're making it like way bigger as an excuse for staying safe and comfortable. So let me give you an example. Imagine for a moment, somebody were to walk up to Walt Disney on the streets of Kansas City when he's 21 years old back in 1923. He's bankrupt and he's homeless. And they say to him, Hey, kid, you're gonna have to start figuring out how to buy 27,440 acres in Central Florida. Because one day you're gonna be responsible for the nation's largest single site employer and the world's most popular vacation destination. He would have been combed. Completely overwhelmed. Because he's just trying to figure out where he's sleeping for the night and where his next meal's coming from.

SPEAKER_07 40:07

Right.

SPEAKER_03 40:09

So

Books, Teaching, And Daily Habits

SPEAKER_03 40:10

again, like you you take it one step at a time. You take it one stage at a time. The way that I wrote my book was not trying to sit down in a morning and you know finish war and peace.

SPEAKER_05 40:27

Right.

SPEAKER_03 40:28

I made a very manageable word count. It was 333 words a day. If I wrote more, that's great. I never had to write, you know, I never wrote less than that. And my only goal was to just make sure I was consistent enough, that's the second C, right? That I that I w that I could write to the next day. And so and I and I and I coach people on this all the time. If if I were to leave Orlando and come to Disneyland or leave Disneyland and go to Walt Disney World and do that by car, I wouldn't need enough gas in the tank to get me all the way to Florida. I wouldn't need the lights to shine bright enough to show me the entire route from Florida to California. I just need enough gas to get to the next gas station. I just need enough light to get me 20 feet down the road as, you know, I drive through the night. And so it's okay to start small. It's okay to have a mini habit. It's okay, as long as you're consistent, it's okay to do a little bit each and every day. And if you do that, you won't recognize your goal three months, six months, or a year from now. And you think it's risky? We don't know yet. Right. Like like get up off the park bench and start taking action, a little bit of action every single day and and see where it goes.

SPEAKER_07 42:04

Yeah. I I love that because you know I I talk to a lot of listeners and and even just you know friends and family in general, when I when I tell them the podcast is about people following their passions, you know, unique hobbies, different things like that. They're like, I don't have time for a hobby. I wouldn't even know where to start with a hobby. And I think this is the perfect segue into you, you don't have to be a master of whatever it is. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 42:34

That's it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 42:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 42:36

Yep. 15 minutes a day is all it takes.

SPEAKER_07 42:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 42:42

And all you're trying to do is be consistent enough so that you know you're going to do it tomorrow, and you know you're going to do it the next day, and it just stacks.

SPEAKER_07 42:52

Right. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 42:54

I uh I write a weekly Wednesdays with Walt inspirational and motivational blog. It goes out to thousands of subscribers. And I can remember when I first started, it felt so overwhelming. And you know, it was like this monster that had to get fed every single week. And it was like this like big thing. And now it's like, oh, like I almost do it in my yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Because it's become habit, it's become routine.

SPEAKER_07 43:25

Let's talk a little bit about your books, The Wisdom of Walt, and beyond the wisdom. What do you hope readers are going to take away from each one of those books?

SPEAKER_03 43:36

The

Change, Culture, And Walt’s Spirit

SPEAKER_03 43:37

responsibility that we as leaders have for influencing the organizations that we're in charge of, the teams that we're in charge of, and making a little bit of difference and a little bit of dent in our world. And I and I tell people all the time, you don't have to change the world the way that Walt Disney did. I mean, I argue he's the most influential cultural figure in American history during the 20th century. And today the sun never sits on a Disney park anywhere in the world, which is amazing considering everybody thought the first one would be bankrupt, shuttered, and forgotten in six months or less. You don't have to change the world, but believe in yourself, believe in your ideas, believe in your dream, believe in your team enough that you at least change your world a little bit each day.

SPEAKER_07 44:32

From all the stories you've uncovered and the research that you've done, what part which one story has personally moved you from Walt's life?

SPEAKER_03 44:42

The bankruptcy in Kansas City and the decision of am I going to stay here, play it safe, go get a job, regret what happened, or am I going to take the risk, go all in, board the train, head to California, and go all in with the $40 single suitcase one-way ticket? And I know when I was facing the brain tumor and brain surgery, that's what drove my decision. I was all in on teaching these lessons. I was all in and teaching those students. I knew I had already boarded the train. And so when people are like, How in the world would you risk your life by putting off brain surgery? Because I had a $40 single suitcase, one-way ticket kind of commitment. Like I knew what I was doing, I knew where I was going, and there wasn't anything that was going to stop me. And so a lot of folks we talk about it, we'll do a thing here and we'll do a thing there, but it's not any kind of level of commitment where we put all the chips on the table and wait to see what happens on the other side.

SPEAKER_07 46:04

And it worked out well for you. It worked out well for both you and Walt.

SPEAKER_03 46:08

Yes.

SPEAKER_07 46:10

How do you feel about Disneyland's evolving, you know, changing, changing through the years since Walt's time?

SPEAKER_03 46:21

So I'm not a fan of change. That's a that's just a personality thing for me. My my mom changed the curtains in our kitchen when I was five years old, and I've never forgiven her. And she's been gone for 17 years now, God rest her soul. So, you know, the temptation is to want it to be the way that it always was. Right. But it's not a museum, it's a living, breathing thing. And Walt once said, as long as there's imagination left in the world, Disneyland will never be finished. And the good news in all of that is it does keep growing, it does keep changing, it does keep evolving. We get to experience attractions that technologically weren't even possible 50, 70 years ago.

SPEAKER_07 47:13

Right.

SPEAKER_03 47:14

And at the same time, and this is why I was able to teach the history of Disneyland course as a history course, the park reflects what's happening in American culture from the 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s, and beyond. And so a lot of people today are like, oh, Walt would roll over in his grave. Well, Walt was cremated, so I don't know how that's possible. But secondly, what Disneyland is struggling with culturally is exactly what we're struggling with across the entire country. It's the conversation we're having everywhere. And that's been true from the day that it opened. Go back and watch the opening day broadcast, which you can easily find on YouTube, July 17th, 1955. The folks who were there reflect exactly who America wanted to think that we were back in 1955.

Hidden Details And Leadership

SPEAKER_03 48:12

Everybody's white, everybody is coming in from church, everybody has the perfect two and a half kids. There's no diversity, there's no integration unless you're a celebrity, Sammy Davis Jr., or a stereotypical cast member, i.e. Aunt Jemima. Because this is six months before Rosa Parks refused to give up her seat on a bus in Montgomery, Alabama. That's who we were. And the park reflects that.

SPEAKER_07 48:46

Do you believe the park still carries his spirit?

SPEAKER_03 48:50

Yes. And so you you have to you have to approach it in sort of a two-pronged way. And that is understanding that Walt Disney was a person, an individual who was a force of nature. And then the company itself is a publicly traded company that answers not to the spirit and memory of Walt, but to but to the stockholders. And it's been a publicly traded company since the 1940s, and Walt hated that. I mean, part of the reason why he built Disneyland was so he could form his own company and go do his own thing because he was so sick of the studio. And he was sick of the studio because he was sick of having to answer to the bottom line. Everybody, yeah, and and to the stockholders, right? And so, you know, there are things that Disney does today where I'm like, oh come on. Really? Seriously? And it feels like more often than not, they kind of pull Walt out and prop him up in the corner if it serves them. Whereas otherwise they're like, yeah, whatever, we're gonna do whatever it takes to make you know the most money possible, because we have stockholders to answer to.

SPEAKER_05 50:09

Right.

SPEAKER_03 50:10

And I get it, but it doesn't necessarily mean that I that I like it. Now, having said all of that, and you know, I didn't I didn't know Walt, I didn't work with Walt. I have had the honor of interviewing in front of hundreds of Disney fans people who did work with Walt and were hired with Walt and knew Walt well. And they'll tell you two things.

The Epcot Question

SPEAKER_03 50:32

One, they never knew on any given day what Walt thought or what Walt was going to do. So this idea that, you know, those of us who never knew him 70 years later could possibly know what Walt would think or do is, you know, crazy. Because again, the people who genuinely knew him had no clue what he was thinking or what he was going to do the next day. But then secondly, he would be unbelievably proud that the parks haven't just survived, but that they've thrived. Again, Sun never sits on a Disney park anywhere in the world. And he would love, like he would feel so validated on an idea and a dream that again his own brother and his own wife thought would be bankrupt, shuttered, and forgotten in six months or less. And I know everybody today is like, oh my gosh, Disney's so expensive. And it is. But the second complaint is it's so damn crowded. You wish I had that business problem. Yeah. Right?

SPEAKER_05 51:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 51:39

Yeah. So, you know, the more they charge, the more people seem to want it. And we can complain about it, but you know, when people find out it cost a dollar back in 1955, they're like, oh my gosh, I wish it cost a dollar today. No, you don't.

SPEAKER_07 51:57

It yeah, it wouldn't have half the value.

SPEAKER_03 52:00

The parks would close due to capacity in 15 minutes.

SPEAKER_07 52:03

Yeah. My last trip to Disney as a grown adult. The minute I stepped onto the resort, out of the bus, onto the resort, just a huge smile. I couldn't help it. And and there's just something about that Disney atmosphere from the cast members. This is outside the park. This is at the resort. It just, I don't know. They they do it right. And it's and it's just a great feeling. And it makes you feel like a kid no matter how old you are. Correct. No matter how much you paid.

SPEAKER_03 52:35

And people are willing to pay for that experience because it's a reality that doesn't exist outside the park or outside the Walt Disney World bubble.

SPEAKER_07 52:44

Is there a hidden gem in Disneyland that you think more people should pay attention to?

SPEAKER_03 52:50

There is. When we give tours, I like to have people stop at the end of Main Street underneath Coke Corner. It's an odd-shaped space, and there's an alternating number of red and white light bulbs, but because of the odd-shaped space, there's an odd number of light bulbs. And so originally there were two light bulbs next to each other that were the same color, which is not what Walt wanted, and it drove him nuts. And so one night, Walt went to the maintenance yard, grabbed a bucket of paint and a paintbrush, painted the last light bulb, half red and half white.

SPEAKER_07 53:31

Really?

SPEAKER_03 53:32

And to this day, Disney keeps one of those light bulbs, half red and half white, in honor of Walt. And it's a reminder that as leaders, it's great to have the idea, it's great to have the vision, but the execution is in the details.

SPEAKER_07 53:48

What a great story. I have one last question for you. If you could spend one hour with Walt Disney, what would you ask him? Or what would you talk about with him?

SPEAKER_03 54:00

Epcot. So the whole reason behind Walt Disney World wasn't to build Magic Kingdom. Walt went on record saying there'll never be another Disneyland because he hated repeating himself. He didn't want to do sequels.

SPEAKER_07 54:13

Right.

SPEAKER_03 54:14

He only agreed to do another Disneyland, i.e. a Magic Kingdom, because he needed the funds to fund Epcot, which was not another theme park. The original vision for Epcot, which stands for Experimental Prototype Community of Tomorrow, it was supposed to be an actual city. And it was going to be a place where people lived, where people worked, where people played. And unfortunately, and maybe this would be what I would ask him like, why

Links, Newsletter, And Closing

SPEAKER_03 54:44

does he have to smoke so damn much? But Walt died of lung cancer six months before they broke ground in Florida. They had purchased the land, but they hadn't broken ground. And so Roy comes out of retirement and spends the last five years seeing the first phase of Walt Disney World through to fruition. And when it comes time to do Epcot, the company's like, yeah, we don't really know what Walt wanted here. We have no idea how to build and how to run a city. We know how to do a theme park. And so they ended up turning Epcot into another theme park. It's a great theme park. Don't get me wrong. I love Epcot.

SPEAKER_05 55:21

Right.

SPEAKER_03 55:22

But it's not the vision and the dream that Walt wanted. And so I would love to hear A, what does Walt think of the Epcot that did get built? And, you know, would he be upset or give them a pass based because the last film Walt ever did was the Epcot film, where he talks about the land in Florida, the vision for Walt Disney World, and everything that Epcot's going to be. And he says all of this is in the planning stage, and all of this is subject to change. And so I would be like, okay, so he said all of this was subject to change. Obviously, they changed it. How do you feel about that? Like, like, what do you think of what they did versus you know what they could have done? Yeah. I think that's a super curious question.

SPEAKER_07 56:15

Yeah. Great stuff. I have so enjoyed my time with you.

SPEAKER_03 56:21

Me too.

SPEAKER_07 56:22

Is there anything? I'm gonna have a link to both books, but is there anything or any place I can send listeners to who want to learn more about you, your course?

SPEAKER_03 56:34

So you can find me at thewisdomofwalt.com.

SPEAKER_07 56:37

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 56:38

And I encourage everyone to sign up via the resource tab to the weekly Wednesdays with Walt blog. It's 100% free. You're gonna get stories from the Disney Park, stories from Walt's life, stories from mine and Lindsay's life that are going to encourage you and motivate you, keep you moving forward, make you a better leader and make you a better person.

SPEAKER_07 57:03

Ah, fantastic. Dr. Disneyland, thank you so much for your time. I really appreciate it. I've enjoyed it and I've actually learned a few things that I'm gonna now challenge myself to apply to my own story. I had such a great time talking to Dr. Jeffrey Barnes, aka Dr. Disneyland. Just a phenomenal life of work that he's put into to create his college-acredited course, which spawned the books and his keynote speaking engagement. I it was just such a pleasure to talk to him and learn more about Walt Disney. And I think the two takeaways from me, from what Walt tried to do with Disneyland is in putting the patrons into the story is really becoming the hero in our own stories. And much like life, there's always conflict in our stories. And conflict can sometimes spawn you into action. And it, you know, those those two points really stuck with me, aside from the really funny story about how Doritos were invented. But anyway, I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Dr. Disneyland. And if you jump down to the show notes, I'll have links to his books, his website, and don't forget to sign up for his Wednesdays with Walt newsletter. So that's it for this week. Again, I hope you enjoyed this week's content. If you're enjoying a sort of conversations, please leave a five-star written review wherever you download your podcasts. It helps the podcast become visible to others who may enjoy this type of content. And I would really appreciate the boost and the help. So again, that's it for this week. I will see you in two weeks with an interview with the man himself, Santa. Take care, everyone.